tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
Vinod,
I am one of the biggest fans of Tendu you can ever find. Still..
I would say, Jayasuriya & Warne have proved themselves as better folks in crunch situations of the faster version of the games. Warne's skills both as a player & captain was very evident in Rajasthan's success in IPL.
Tendu, Rahul, Gangu etc., are good when playing without lots of pressure. Yesterday's was the 22nd finals that India has played in 50-50 version in the recent years. Hold your breath.. India has only won only 2. These trimurtis were there in most of these finals.
Why does India have that dismal record? It's the crunch finals that separate boys from men. I believe Jayasuriya is a real man!
Recycled Soul posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
There is no doubt that Jayasuriya is one of the best ODI batsmen out here & an entertainer...but Sachin Tendulkar is still much ahead of Jayasuriya when it somes to ODI supremacy.....
When you check Jayasuriya's ODI career & compare it with Sachin Tendulkar...you realise that Sachin has averaged much more , performed much better in most situations & still the team has failed to live upto the expectations of winning more matches.
You cant blame the senior Indian players ( Sachin, Dravid, Sourav, Laxman.. even our top bowlers..Kumble, etc) when their teams fail to live upto the reputation of building up on the performances of senior/top player's performances in big events. Afterall we had 3 Indian ODI batsmen- Sachin, Dravid, Sourav...all scoring more than 10000 runs each in ODIs......
Teams like Australia, Srilanka have the ability to build upon a top players key performance in the match. India has failed to do that. India fails as a unit in crunch situations & often it is the seniors who are blamed. Probably also because the seniors/top players are also the ones who take the most accolades when the team wins.
Sachin - matches 417, 16361 runs, av:44.33, 42x100s, 89x50s, SR-85.49
Opened batting - 295 times.
Man of match - 56 times
1000 runs in a year - 7 times.
Sanath - matches 416, 12688 runs, av: 32.87, 27x100s, 65x 50s, SR -91.16
Opened batting - 357 times.
Man of match - 45 times
1000 runs in a year - 4 times
Now look at factors where the following stats are mentioned & compare Sachin & Sanath....& u decide who's better...
1. Career batting average
2. Hundreds & fifties scored.
3. runs scored & batting average in tournament finals & also centuries/fifties scored
4. runs scored & batting average in matches won & also centuries/fifties scored
5. runs scored & batting av in batting first & also centuries/fifties scored
6. runs scored & bat av in batting second (chasing) & also centuries/fifties scored
7. runs scored in matches won & also centuries/fifties scored
8. also check the world cup record. While Sachin reigns supreme in world cup history...Jayasuriya has reigned supreme in Asia cup history.
The one department that Jayasuriya beats Sachin hands down... is the number of sixes that he hits... Jaysuriya has 263 sixes vs Sachin's 166 sixes. Thats where Jayasuriya makes the big difference to any innings..thrashing the ball over the ropes..afterall he is the record holder for most sixes in ODIs.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
RS:
Thanks for the elaborate stats. I appreciate it.
Can you give just the comparison between SJ and ST limited to Finals, 2000-2008 and Multi nation tournaments? That's what is the focus of discussion today.
I have no doubt watching Tendu right from that game when he slammed Abdul Qadeer for 3 sixes as a 16 year old, that he is a great player. However, my beef is that he chokes, that too in finals of 21st century, when it really matters.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
Vinod.. no one is arguing here that Tendu is not a 'overall' great player.
You started the discussion saying "if j'suriya can, at 39, why can't tendulkar?". All I am saying is that Tendu has been a big choker in the recent years.
Isn't that a norm in every sport, everywhere in the world to check the most recent accomplishments & form of a sportsperson before selecting for a team? Gavaskar had stellar records, but would you rewind to check his records & hire him today to play? If I am the hiring manager, wouldn't.
It's as simple as that. Why don't you apply a filter of 2000-2008 for those records to see if I am talking sense or nonsense?
Vinod Gupte posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
ok, now how recent is recent enough?? who decides that?
i would. i would give him the job becoj i know that others are all losers. they do jack when it comes to quality attacks. hint - ysingh down under. t20 hero driving sports car and boinking heroines wet his pants there. i will come back to this thread after the lankan tour if it does not rain and if they manage to play.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
>> now how recent is recent enough??
When an athlete goes for Olympic trials, two recent Olympic performance is considered on top of recent trials/world level meets.
When a football player (soccer) goes for selection, fans compare him to others for his two recent world cup and other Euro kind of championships.
That's why it's prudent to compare about 8 years worth of data (2 world cup length). This is where Tendu fails miserably, that too in pressure situations like finals.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
Now you are joking. The biggest critics of Tendu have always told me that he is a flop when it 'really matters'... like 2003 WC finals when he popped up in the air.
Recycled Soul posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
ROFL. After scoring a wrold cup record 673 runs in just one tournament...people feel Sachin didnt do enough in 2003 ?? Interesting! Why not blame the bowlers for their pathetic spell & Sourav Ganguly for letting Australia bat first even after winning the toss. India batting first could have possibly given India an extra edge & we might have won the 2003 world cup. I think we invited trouble the minute we let Australia bat first in the finals.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
Ifs and buts don't make someone a 'real' hero. Tendulkar choked when chasing a big target in the world's biggest stage. What he accomplished before that doesn't matter. Period.
It's just like saying New England Patriots did so much in their 18-0 run last season.. Finally in the 19th all important game, it was New York who got the ring and played better when it mattered most. Period.
I don't know if you heard, but being a NY fan, I was humming it for months.. "18 wins don't mean a thing.. if you don't have the ring" I don't know how much passion people discuss football in Sulekha, but a Boston fan would be getting ready to chase me down the corridor now.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
I am not talking about tests here. I am focusing on 50-50 and 20-20 kind of rush cricket. Again, I am not questioning Tendu's marvellous dedication to Indian cricket. I put him on the top when he returned to 1999 world cup after his father's death. Great dedication.
However, he is not a 'match winner' in finals at the same level as say Jayasuriya. Can you list from this decade how many finals Tendu helped India win? I already listed 2003 WC finals when he choked.
Vinod Gupte posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
let us not talk about 03 finals. it was not tendulkar who choked. it was ZK who went overboard. it is not tendulkar's fault that we lost that final. in fact, it was only because of tendulkar that we reached there. all those matches mattered.
RS has stats on how many he helped us win. and you maybe surprised that he has won many finals. there is tendulkar and there are the others when it comes to ODIs.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
Dude.. I don't need RS for statistics. Being a Tendu, fan, I keep track of his numbers.
Whether you like it or not, it's a fact. Tendu is a big time choker when it comes to finals (and semis to some extent) in 21st century. He scored his first 50 in a meaningful finals in 2008 after a drought of 8 years. That's what separates him from 'real' men. Do you still think he is at the same league as Jayasuriya?
------------------------------
The sequence of his scores since the Champions Trophy final are:
Scores Opponents Tournament Venue Date Result for India
69 N.Zealand ICC Champions Nairobi 15.10.2000 Lost
5 S.Lanka Champions Trophy Sharjah 29.10.2000 Lost
0 W.Indies Coca Cola Coke 7.7.2001 Lost
17 S.Africa Standard Bank Durban 26.10.2001 Lost
14 England NatWest series Lord’s 13.7.2002 Won
7* Sri Lanka ICC Champions Colombo 30.9.2002 Lost
4 Australia ICC World Cup Johann. 23.3.2003 Lost
45 Australia TVS Cup Calcutta 18.11.2003 Lost
8 Australia VB series Melbourne 6.2.2004 Lost
27 Australia VB series SCG 8.2.2004 Lost
74 Sri Lanka Asia Cup Colombo 1.8.2004 Lost
117* Australia Commonwealth Bank SCG 2.3.2008 Won
Vinod Gupte posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
ok, now the criterion has changed to what a player does in the 21st century. i did not know THAT. have you checked his overall career?
and before you take this dicsussion into some other direction, let me make it clear that i did not compare SRT with j-suriya. I said, SRT is better in crunch situations in ODIs than in tests.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
>>ok, now the criterion has changed to what a player does in the 21st century. i did not know THAT
This is what I wrote in the very first post of this branch. Scroll up and check it once more. I was always talking about 21st century since then. One's record 20 years back won't matter when you are selecting him for a game in 2008. Recent records & current form counts.
"Tendu, Rahul, Gangu etc., are good when playing without lots of pressure. Yesterday's was the 22nd finals that India has played in 50-50 version in the recent years. Hold your breath.. India has only won only 2. These trimurtis were there in most of these finals.
Why does India have that dismal record? It's the crunch finals that separate boys from men. I believe Jayasuriya is a real man!"
muchocricket posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
>> Yesterday's was the 22nd finals that India has played in 50-50 version in the recent years.
calling them finals is bunch of baloney, I had posted this long ago.. (If my memory serves right) 70% of those tournaments where India reached finals, had minnows as the 3rd team, they shouldn't even be called finals IMO, they're essentially bilateral tournaments.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
mucho - The irony is that even when they are essentially bilateral tournies, India is choking in the finals. 2 out of 22 in recent years is a horrendous record to have.
Vinod Gupte posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
i do not understand how you can take into account only a certain portion of his overall career. in any case, if you have to compare them, you will have to wait till the end of their careers. my original post was, if j-suriya can, at 39, why can't tendulkar? let's wait.
tejasvee posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
I don't think Tendu will last till his 39th birthday. I would rather see him retire from quicker formats and focus on Tests to slam another 8-10 centuries. India badly need him in Tests.
IPL has generated enough youngsters like Rohit, Gambhir to carry on quicker formats for India.
Recycled Soul posted Re:j-suriya and tendulkar on 2 mnths ago
It all depends on Sachin's fitness. His form isnt doubtful.. he has the ability to spring back into form just like Jayasuriya did in the last few months. If he is fit, he will & should play the 2011 world cup.
After all he is still one of India's best ODI players out there...
1425 runs in 2007 av:47.50 & 399 runs in 2008 (10 matches) av: 44.33 ..he is averaging more & scoring more than some of these younger players.. The recent glimpse of Sachin in the CB series in Australia was proof that he still has it.
They might have found replacements for a Sourav (in Gambhir) ...but not yet for Sachin Tendulkar & even Dravid (as sheet anchor role in middle order). Dhoni comes partly close to playing the sheet anchor role...but that isnt what we want him to play. Rohit Sharma is promising but he is yet to prove his worth like Gambhir in ODIs.
Uthappa is sliding away. We have seen some young newcomers in T20 hitting well, but whether they can be consistent like Gambhir or whether they have the consistency & the long innings playing capabilities of seniors is yet to be experimented.
I am one of the biggest fans of Tendu you can ever find. Still..
I would say, Jayasuriya & Warne have proved themselves as better folks in crunch situations of the faster version of the games. Warne's skills both as a player & captain was very evident in Rajasthan's success in IPL.
Tendu, Rahul, Gangu etc., are good when playing without lots of pressure. Yesterday's was the 22nd finals that India has played in 50-50 version in the recent years. Hold your breath.. India has only won only 2. These trimurtis were there in most of these finals.
Why does India have that dismal record? It's the crunch finals that separate boys from men. I believe Jayasuriya is a real man!
There is no doubt that Jayasuriya is one of the best ODI batsmen out here & an entertainer...but Sachin Tendulkar is still much ahead of Jayasuriya when it somes to ODI supremacy.....
When you check Jayasuriya's ODI career & compare it with Sachin Tendulkar...you realise that Sachin has averaged much more , performed much better in most situations & still the team has failed to live upto the expectations of winning more matches.
You cant blame the senior Indian players ( Sachin, Dravid, Sourav, Laxman.. even our top bowlers..Kumble, etc) when their teams fail to live upto the reputation of building up on the performances of senior/top player's performances in big events. Afterall we had 3 Indian ODI batsmen- Sachin, Dravid, Sourav...all scoring more than 10000 runs each in ODIs......
Teams like Australia, Srilanka have the ability to build upon a top players key performance in the match. India has failed to do that. India fails as a unit in crunch situations & often it is the seniors who are blamed. Probably also because the seniors/top players are also the ones who take the most accolades when the team wins.
Sachin - matches 417, 16361 runs, av:44.33, 42x100s, 89x50s, SR-85.49
Opened batting - 295 times.
Man of match - 56 times
1000 runs in a year - 7 times.
Sanath - matches 416, 12688 runs, av: 32.87, 27x100s, 65x 50s, SR -91.16
Opened batting - 357 times.
Man of match - 45 times
1000 runs in a year - 4 times
Chk out these two links... Jayasuriya's ODI stats...
http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/player/49209.html?class=2;template=results;type=allround
Sachin Tendulkar's ODI stats...
http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/player/35320.html?class=2;template=results;type=allround
Now look at factors where the following stats are mentioned & compare Sachin & Sanath....& u decide who's better...
1. Career batting average
2. Hundreds & fifties scored.
3. runs scored & batting average in tournament finals & also centuries/fifties scored
4. runs scored & batting average in matches won & also centuries/fifties scored
5. runs scored & batting av in batting first & also centuries/fifties scored
6. runs scored & bat av in batting second (chasing) & also centuries/fifties scored
7. runs scored in matches won & also centuries/fifties scored
8. also check the world cup record. While Sachin reigns supreme in world cup history...Jayasuriya has reigned supreme in Asia cup history.
The one department that Jayasuriya beats Sachin hands down... is the number of sixes that he hits... Jaysuriya has 263 sixes vs Sachin's 166 sixes. Thats where Jayasuriya makes the big difference to any innings..thrashing the ball over the ropes..afterall he is the record holder for most sixes in ODIs.
Thanks for the elaborate stats. I appreciate it.
Can you give just the comparison between SJ and ST limited to Finals, 2000-2008 and Multi nation tournaments? That's what is the focus of discussion today.
I have no doubt watching Tendu right from that game when he slammed Abdul Qadeer for 3 sixes as a 16 year old, that he is a great player. However, my beef is that he chokes, that too in finals of 21st century, when it really matters.
j-suriya in finals
37 finals = 1577 runs @ 43.8 = 2 100's = 13 50's
he won in 20 of those = made 1160 @ 61.05 = 2 100's = 10 50's
tendulkar. gasp.
37 finals = 1695 runs @ 52.96 = 5 100's = 10 50's
he won in 15 of those = made 1099 @ 99.9 = 5 100's = 5 50's
in the lost finals, he made 5 50's. what were other mother*beep*ers doing? taking kickbacks?
You started the discussion saying "if j'suriya can, at 39, why can't tendulkar?". All I am saying is that Tendu has been a big choker in the recent years.
Isn't that a norm in every sport, everywhere in the world to check the most recent accomplishments & form of a sportsperson before selecting for a team? Gavaskar had stellar records, but would you rewind to check his records & hire him today to play? If I am the hiring manager, wouldn't.
It's as simple as that. Why don't you apply a filter of 2000-2008 for those records to see if I am talking sense or nonsense?
That's just argument for the sake of argument, which won't stand.
What about the 11 other recent finals (3 or more teams involved) that India lost which I have listed in a response earlier today?
So his record from that list of 12 finals that mattered in recent times. 1 win - 11 losses. Would you give him job if you were the selector?
ok, now how recent is recent enough?? who decides that?
i would. i would give him the job becoj i know that others are all losers. they do jack when it comes to quality attacks. hint - ysingh down under. t20 hero driving sports car and boinking heroines wet his pants there. i will come back to this thread after the lankan tour if it does not rain and if they manage to play.
When an athlete goes for Olympic trials, two recent Olympic performance is considered on top of recent trials/world level meets.
When a football player (soccer) goes for selection, fans compare him to others for his two recent world cup and other Euro kind of championships.
That's why it's prudent to compare about 8 years worth of data (2 world cup length). This is where Tendu fails miserably, that too in pressure situations like finals.
ROFL. After scoring a wrold cup record 673 runs in just one tournament...people feel Sachin didnt do enough in 2003 ?? Interesting! Why not blame the bowlers for their pathetic spell & Sourav Ganguly for letting Australia bat first even after winning the toss. India batting first could have possibly given India an extra edge & we might have won the 2003 world cup. I think we invited trouble the minute we let Australia bat first in the finals.
It's just like saying New England Patriots did so much in their 18-0 run last season.. Finally in the 19th all important game, it was New York who got the ring and played better when it mattered most. Period.
I don't know if you heard, but being a NY fan, I was humming it for months..
"18 wins don't mean a thing.. if you don't have the ring"
that maybe true in tests but not ODIs. definitely not.
However, he is not a 'match winner' in finals at the same level as say Jayasuriya. Can you list from this decade how many finals Tendu helped India win? I already listed 2003 WC finals when he choked.
RS has stats on how many he helped us win. and you maybe surprised that he has won many finals. there is tendulkar and there are the others when it comes to ODIs.
Whether you like it or not, it's a fact. Tendu is a big time choker when it comes to finals (and semis to some extent) in 21st century. He scored his first 50 in a meaningful finals in 2008 after a drought of 8 years. That's what separates him from 'real' men.
------------------------------
The sequence of his scores since the Champions Trophy final are:
Scores Opponents Tournament Venue Date Result for India
69 N.Zealand ICC Champions Nairobi 15.10.2000 Lost
5 S.Lanka Champions Trophy Sharjah 29.10.2000 Lost
0 W.Indies Coca Cola Coke 7.7.2001 Lost
17 S.Africa Standard Bank Durban 26.10.2001 Lost
14 England NatWest series Lord’s 13.7.2002 Won
7* Sri Lanka ICC Champions Colombo 30.9.2002 Lost
4 Australia ICC World Cup Johann. 23.3.2003 Lost
45 Australia TVS Cup Calcutta 18.11.2003 Lost
8 Australia VB series Melbourne 6.2.2004 Lost
27 Australia VB series SCG 8.2.2004 Lost
74 Sri Lanka Asia Cup Colombo 1.8.2004 Lost
117* Australia Commonwealth Bank SCG 2.3.2008 Won
More here: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/tendulkar-betters-his-record-in-odi-finals_10023535.html
Not done well? You are being very generous.
He has been a big flop in finals in the recent years.
emphasis was on "Tendulkar COMPARED TO ?" rather than "not done well" part.
ok, now the criterion has changed to what a player does in the 21st century. i did not know THAT. have you checked his overall career?
and before you take this dicsussion into some other direction, let me make it clear that i did not compare SRT with j-suriya. I said, SRT is better in crunch situations in ODIs than in tests.
This is what I wrote in the very first post of this branch. Scroll up and check it once more. I was always talking about 21st century since then. One's record 20 years back won't matter when you are selecting him for a game in 2008. Recent records & current form counts.
"Tendu, Rahul, Gangu etc., are good when playing without lots of pressure. Yesterday's was the 22nd finals that India has played in 50-50 version in the recent years. Hold your breath.. India has only won only 2. These trimurtis were there in most of these finals.
Why does India have that dismal record? It's the crunch finals that separate boys from men. I believe Jayasuriya is a real man!"
calling them finals is bunch of baloney, I had posted this long ago.. (If my memory serves right) 70% of those tournaments where India reached finals, had minnows as the 3rd team, they shouldn't even be called finals IMO, they're essentially bilateral tournaments.
22 is debatable. for India to reach 22 finals is also debatable.
Are you smoking pot that early today?
IPL has generated enough youngsters like Rohit, Gambhir to carry on quicker formats for India.
After all he is still one of India's best ODI players out there...
1425 runs in 2007 av:47.50 & 399 runs in 2008 (10 matches) av: 44.33 ..he is averaging more & scoring more than some of these younger players.. The recent glimpse of Sachin in the CB series in Australia was proof that he still has it.
They might have found replacements for a Sourav (in Gambhir) ...but not yet for Sachin Tendulkar & even Dravid (as sheet anchor role in middle order). Dhoni comes partly close to playing the sheet anchor role...but that isnt what we want him to play. Rohit Sharma is promising but he is yet to prove his worth like Gambhir in ODIs.
Uthappa is sliding away. We have seen some young newcomers in T20 hitting well, but whether they can be consistent like Gambhir or whether they have the consistency & the long innings playing capabilities of seniors is yet to be experimented.