Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism.
started by rawemotions 3 mnths agoReplies
Now, just like most countries, Saudi and other Arab countries are also required by law to hire only muslims. Only if they can prove they cannot hire a qualified muslim other religionists can be hired. So this bold statement helps recruiters and the company satify/circumvent that requirement. In fact, many muslim employers in Arab countries even prefer Hindus as they dont desent or cause any kind of problem. They are very easy to control and also easy to throw out if at all necessary as no law protects the non-muslims in those countries.
flimflam2 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoIsn't this blatantly against the Secularism that we seek to cherish? -- rawemotions.
"seek to cherish?"
the advertisement and the employer are indeed discriminating among people on the basis of religion. however, the employer is saudi or some other kind of arab. they apparently have no obligation to be secular. your complaint is futile. the only complaint that has any possibility of having some effect might be one made to the newspaper. you may be able to persuade the newspaper publisher to not accept any such ads, although i find that unlikely, for they want as much advertising revenue as possible.
you could try to have some law enacted in india that would make such advertisements illegal. if such a law is enacted, only indians will suffer. the arabs will merely minimize recruitment from india, and hire more people from indonesia, pakistan, and bangladesh. if you think that only indian muslims will suffer, you'd be wrong; deprived of opportunities in the middle east, indian muslims will compete harder for the limited number of jobs in india;
moreover, remittances from abroad will decrease, and both consumption and investment spending in india by indians employed abroad will decrease. this will, in turn, reduce demand, output, employment, and the standard of living - of everyone, not only the muslims - in india.
don't you see that the arabs are depriving themselves of the best talents available in india by restricting the pool from which they select their employees to muslims? are you that concerned about arab welfare that you want to correct them?
the notion of india retaliating against others' idiotic actions - of e.g., the arab countries, pakistan, and b'desh - in the same idiotic way has long been touted at sulekha. read gyanputra's, uppili's, sandilya's, and little fella's posts. no matter how much satisfaction it brings you, we would not be acting in our own best interest, including that of our non-muslims, by retaliating.
flimflam
As a secular country run by a so-called Secular govt. should pass such a law if one is already not on books. Would such an ad be allowed in US or other western newspapers ?
Indians will lose jobs or remittances will decrease is a convenient fear tactic. The fact the Islamis hire millions of hindus DESPITE their preferential law for muslims prove that they also have no choice but to hire hindus (and Christians - Goan women are a favorite as secretaries - what with their westernized dresses even in the earlier days). At least by enforcing a ban on such ads, India will salavge A LITTLE self-respect without losing any of their Islami jobs in the ME.
As TBT stated if such a law was already on the books, then why doesn't the fakular govt. take action against these Fakular newspapers when the proof is all in black and white.
rawemotions posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoEven for Indian Muslims, the Saudi's have the scant respect, even though they toiled to build that country, enduring harsh laws.
The Saudi's do not treat these guys well.. Recently they have instituted a Saudi First policy and have decided to send back thousands of people who have been indoctrinated on a rigid form of Islam back into India. So now they are distinguishing between Saudi Muslims and Indian Muslims. So much for their principles of favouring muslims.
Indian Consulates there were sleeping, whereas the Pakistanis tapped into their frustration and have been contacting them in mosques there, and that is how the ISI has sleeper cells in Kerala now. This is a known issue.
-sandilya. posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths ago
Truthbetold3 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoFlim Flam hit on lot points I agree with in terms of newpaper ads, opportunties for Indian muslims, remittences etc.
Combine that with Uppili's logic that may be many of those people are just fulfilling Arab laws that require Muslims to be selected. Ones that requirement is fulfilled, may be other Indians can get opportunity. As far as I know Arab nations have hired millions of Indian hindus. Did they stop giving jobs to indian non muslims? If yes, any evidence?
If one tries to reduce opportunities for Indian muslims without a good reason other than so called secular concerns, most reasonable people would consider that attitude mean. In any case even BJP would not be able to implement any decisions that restrict employment in a job starved country like India.
1. If this ad breaks Indian laws, has any one challenged it? If not, why not?
2. If you suspect that Muslim countries are using these job ads to lure new recruits to Islam, do you have any evidence. Unless it is done by some shady organizations in these countries, most business people would not indulge in those practice because it rarely pays to do such thing.
3. If you make these ads illegal, Arabs use religions organs to promise jobs in those countries, what will stop them?
Till you have some sensible argument to worry about these ads, please don't lose any sleep.
rawemotions posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoI am very surprised that economic arguments are being given to circumvent, natonal laws/principles, especially those of such paramount nature. I do not have a response to whether this ad breaks Indian laws, I would be very surprised if it doesn't. But certainly it is not compatible to secularism. That is quite clear.
Do you agree that such an advertisement s not compatible to secularism? I did not get a clear yes or no answer from either of you.
And I do not understand the references to retaliaton.
We are not retaliating here, we are only saying that we have laws/principles, and we need to enforce them.
Tomorrow some Arab Sheikh might come in and say, that if everybody in Goa pays Jaziya tax, he is willing to invest 20 Billion $, is that acceptable ?. Thus I do not think argument does not hold water.
Response to 3)
I am not concerned about changing what Saudi's do. We need to enact a law debarring such public advertisements. Period. I am sure those who want to get hired will get hired, through ways mentioned in this forum.
There are other ways of doing that.
It no way impacts the Indian muslims who can continue to be hired, the Saudi's can scan the resumes and take whomever they want. Nobody stops them, but what criteria they apply is for them to use.
Thus, I do not think remittances are going to fall down drastically as projected. Thus I fail to understand how enacting a law asking for adherence of advertisements to secular principles can be seen as harmful to Indian muslims. This is a convoluted argument, which does not make sense to me.
The cost of allowing law and order to deteriorate in our country is also high. Let us not forget that. By giving up on secularism for short term economic gains, and that too something that directly impacts our polity does not make sense at all. If we send out a clear and principled stand, every country understands. If we allow fundamentalist opinions to pervade in mainstream media, we are setting ourselves up for law and order problems later, because we are allowing radicalization of people.
For the same reason, it is also important that when these countries invest in India, they need to give equal opportunites to all. Are you agreeable if Saudi Investments in India also institute Muslims only policy ? Is that considered secularism too?
Bulk of the voluntary male conversions to muslim religion, in independent India (especially Kerala) have been for the jobs. It is a known secret there. If somebody institutes an investigation into the date of conversion and the person's move to Middle East, the truth would come out. If we enact a legislation that any non-muslim who wants to convert cannot take up employment in those areas for 10 year s from the date of conversion, you will see the effect on such conversions. This is offcourse my point of view. This tantamounts to conversion for monetary gains. It is not for the love of a religion, which is what the Indian government really intended, when they allowed people freedom to change religion.
Truthbetold3 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoRaw,
While you picked parts of arguments to give your answer, you also failed to answer simple questions such as
"If this ad breaks Indian laws, has any one challenged it? If not, why not?".
You did not or could not answer this question. But you went on to argue my argument is condoning an illegal activity? How do you know? You do not know the law the ad is breaking. No challenged it in a court.
if the ads did not break Indian law and follow Saudi requirements, I do not know if there is a legal problem to discuss.
Secularism:
Saudi's , as you would agree, do not endorse secularism. You and I or even the mighty America cannot impose our good intentioned idea of secularism on Saudis.
Inducements and religious conversion:
here is where I am a little miffed. People who complain about inducements and religious conversions have to put in a little effort. I have not seen any credible book or report that collected information in Kerala or anywhere in India about reliious conversion based on Saudi job inducements. Till such data is collected, complaints are useless.
In US , most think tanks back up their arguments with experts, reports, books, newpaper articles, and organized campaign to spread their specific ideas. In India, criticism is limited to complaints with no data to back up and effort to create the background information. There is a saying "We believe in god. Every one else bring data"
rawemotions posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoI think you are highly confused by what I post, I am not debating Saudi secularism here, I am debating the practise of secularism in India. So I do not understand why you keep talking about religious laws in Saudi Arabia or other middle eastern countries.
You have also evaded my questions on shifting goal posts of secularism. The question is how should a non secular country conduct itself in a secular country like India?
This is a very important question according to me. So I think it is very important, that we answer whether such behaviour (as described above in the rejoinders to my original post) is compatible with our constitution which has declared secularism as an important principle to abide.
You see the very fact that advertisement is given in such form., can be considered an an inducement irrespective of whether anybody actually follows it or not. you cannot deny the fact, that any non muslim who is without job could be tempted to convert exclusively for getting the benefits of a job.
This I consider as inducement to convert, do you agree ?
Truthbetold3 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoRaw,
I did not realize that you set out on the great task of proving the obvious.
I do not know your goal is to prove that India is not a secular country and Indian govt is not secular. This old news but let me repeat. India has never been a secular nation and it will never be a secular nation at time soon.
Just so that I could complete my news cast, US, UK, Germnay, Australia and France are secular either. They are very tolerant of other views but they are not secular.
For your reading pleasure, let me also add that all Indian political parties are opportunistic and use secularism as a Gandola to switch over to other side for opportunistic reasons (ex: SP's switch from opposition to supporting sworn enemy congress party).
rawemotions posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoActually I still feel it is better for you to answer the points I raised on how a non-secular country should conduct itself in a country, which atleast by its constitution claims that it is secular.
Please take the example I cited above on Saudi investments and let me know what you think.
For example if we enact a law which debars any company from discriminating based on religion for jobs within India, would you support it ?
Truthbetold3 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoMy understaning is that current Indian laws make it illegal to discriminate based on religion for any activity with in India. Why do you need new laws?
Truthbetold3 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoI am sorry about the name. I meant to type "RAW".
MaxEntropy_Man posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths ago
rawemotions posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoa) Because Muslms encourage conversions, this essentially is an open inducement for conversion and comes under
the category of providing monetary incentives to convert
b) The saudi's are not advertising for Saudi Citizens, there are asking for Indian citizens and are discriminatory in their
advertisements. So it have the right to be concerned. Their advertisements by their discriminatory nature promotes
the religious hatred against non-muslims and denigrates non-musliims.
rawemotions posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths ago3) It is blatanly against secularism, and violates the law.. The law says all religions are equal.
Ponniyin Selvan posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoDo you want the poor folks who apply for these positions to be killed?
rawemotions posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoYou will find this for typically many jobs in middle eastern countries and not just those in Mecca and Medina / Saudi Arabia.
Truthbetold3 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoYou said you are not aware of any law that these ads break. Secularism is just a principle in the constition and the laws passed by parliament are not broken. If you wish to make a law , then run a campaign to create a law to ban such ads and then based on that Law demand a ban. One step at a time.
Merlot Daruwala posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoNone of those countries have the remotest pretensions of being secular. If anything, they are those extremely intolerant societies that many chaddis would like to turn India into.
While you are at it, why don't you take a look at matrimonial ads in Indian newspapers? In addition to the religion, they even specify the caste, sub-caste, gotra, color of skin and profession. What do you think that says about Indian society?
Truthbetold3 posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoDid you get your daily quota of chaddis?
What is wrong with Indian Matrimonials in India or around the world? They are stating their preferences openly because that is what they do. What is wrong with that? How is it related to secularism?
Do you want to ban Indian matrimonials like your autocratic Turkey milatary secularists banning head scarves? Is that secularism? Is that democracy?
-sandilya. posted Re:Advertisements in Indian newspapers - blatantly against secularism. on 3 mnths agoWhat is wrong in S Arabia asking for Muslims only? You must be anti-secular and communal. Why don't you ask Karat, Chatterjee and Basu? They will teach you how W Bengal became super secular by incorporating Bangladeshi Muslims.
Rawemotions and Sylvan talk about Saudi why turn deaf and blind to what is happening in your own country?We ,have the tendency to hide our heads under the sand where our country is concerned but blame others for doing something which may not be so bad as to what is happening in our own country.
All of you remember when you point a finger at others ,one is pointing towards you.
You are blaming them for not recruiting non muslims but what killing muslims and specially shameful acts of violence against muslim women,killing innocent unborn babes in their mother's wombs ? What was their fault ,they were not Hindus.
Dont throw stones while sitting in a glass house.Have you forgotten the blood shed and mayhem in Gujarat?
>> Please read the post carefully. I am not blaming them for recruiting only muslims or for not recruiting non muslims.
>>I state that their advertisements indicating that they will only accept muslims is not compatible with secular
>>principles of Indian constitution.They can issue a general advertisement, through an agency & screen only
>>muslim resumes and hire them. We do not care. However a public advertisement in Indian newspapers
>>that discriminates against Hindus is not acceptable and contravenes secularism.
Looks like you have been taken in by the Mullah rhetoric.
If what you say is true then would you also agree that the Muslim kings from Ghori and Ghazni till the present day Mogul desendents ruling Pakisatan (that is what they claim) targetted hindus, raped Hindu women, forecebly converted millions of hindus, destroyed 1000s of temples and building mosques and masjids on top them ?
If Harijans and OBCs are given reservation today for their neglect in the past, shouldn't the Hindus be given ALL the seats and opportunities bcz they were the persecuted ones over the last 1000 years - that too when the muslims got their own country and scores of arab countries are there to give them asylum, citizenship, jobs, and MORAL support ?
*I am foreseeing where this thread is headed by my past "observations" on the patterns of such threads....
I think you got too emotional and mixed up many things..
Rawemotions and Sylvan talk about Saudi why turn deaf and blind to what is happening in your own country?We ,have the tendency to hide our heads under the sand where our country is concerned but blame others for doing something which may not be so bad as to what is happening in our own country.
All of you remember when you point a finger at others ,one is pointing towards you.
You are blaming them for not recruiting non muslims but what killing muslims and specially shameful acts of violence against muslim women,killing innocent unborn babes in their mother's wombs ? What was their fault ,they were not Hindus.
Dont throw stones while sitting in a glass house.Have you forgotten the blood shed and mayhem in Gujarat?
I never heard that Indian government made it a state policy to kill Muslims and perfom shameful acts on Muslim women, like in the case of Saudi government banning non-Muslims fromentering a couple of their holy cities / discriminating in favor of Muslims in jobs.
If you read the statistics on Gujarat riots tabled in the parliament by the "secular" government, around 850 Muslims and 250 Hindus died. It is a riot like the thousands of riots that took place / taking place / will take place in India. I think you are under estimating the power of Muslims of India to get back. Infact they are the ones who roasted Hindu women and children in the first place. Yeah yeah I know that Laloo submitted a report saying that those folks committed Sati / self immolation just before the Bihar elections. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell. let me know..