Everything is God vs. Everything belongs to God
started by deep purple 5 mnths agoReplies
Btw, even in the Advaita, creation (basically soul and the world) are not same thing as God (who is eternal, unchanging and the complete reality), but creation reflects the temporary illusory aspect of reality.
To see how soul might be in relation to God (the creator), perhaps consider the ray of light emanating from the Sun or a spark from fire. Even though the ray of light originates from the sun, it is not same as the sun; and even though a spark may come out of fire it is not same as the fire.
In the Gita (
In other words, the Reality according to Hinduism has three independent components: God, soul and the matter. Thus the question of everything being God does not arise.
>>> Regarding your comment on Advaita on soul etc., Advaita philosophy is quite complex to understand. You should have first read what Madhva et al. have to say about it from Dvaita considerations.
In the Gita (
In other words, the Reality according to Hinduism has three independent components: God, soul and the matter. Thus the question of everything being God does not arise.
Hi Seva -
Thanks for your reply. Everything is certainly not a right word e.g. God is not in a chair. Everyone - as in life forms - is what would have been correct to exclude matter from life. Does not Gita clearly says that God is within all lives?
In fact Ch 8, v 3 & 4 only corroborate that God is IN humans. Verbatim translations below:
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-08-03.html
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-08-04html
How do you differentiate God from soul?
Thanks again.
I cannot answer on how to differentiate God from soul. But this much I can say with absolute faith that one need not look to outside sources to identify God. HE lives within oneself. I was inspired to write this blog after I had heard a discourse of Sri Sri Ravishankar of the Art of Living fame.
http://rajaputhran.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/08/the-divinity-in-one-s-self.htm
Regards.
Rajaputhran.
>>> DP, it's a very profound question and there are many ways of looking at it, even giving rise to different schools of thought. It essentially depends upon what your own inclination is regarding this. You can sometimes use the guidelines set and explored by acharyas / philosophers from the past, like Ramanuja, Madhva et al. Try looking in some of the Vaisnava philosophies to find an answer to your question.
If a soul resides in each body, and God is ONE - how can it be? i.e. if each soul is God, how can there be billions of souls?
Vivekananda said - think of soul as a drop, when combined together they make an ocean. How does a drop differentiate itself from Ocean once mixed? It can not. If I were to ask a drop in the ocean - are you a drop or ocean? how can it reply?
Aatma and Parmatma. Drop and Ocean.
Does it mean that God is sum collection of all souls? They do not differ in "quality" but in "quantity" ?
Enough for now.
Thanks for sharing your views, or anyone else who does.
Regards,
TS.
TS:
" If I were to ask a drop in the ocean - are you a drop or ocean? how can it reply?"
Very sensible of you to ask the drop and I am absolutely certain it will blink and roll down from your hands and get mixed with the ocean !!! Drop and Ocean. Aatman and Paramatman. Every language known to Man has its own limitations and explaining an abstract thing more clearly is not easy but difficult.
In the Brhadarnyaka Isa, Narayana Upanishads, - Sukla Yajurveda the following Santi Patha is found:
Om Purna-madah purnam idam purnat purnam udachyate
Purnasya purnam ada ya purnam-éva-avasisyaté
Om shanti, shanti, shanti !!!
Most scholars give the meaning as follows:
Om. That is whole; this is whole; from the whole, the whole becomes manifest. From the whole when the whole is negated, what remains is again the whole. Om Peace ! peace ! peace !
Would make no sense to most lay people. People who have mastered the art of unravelling the obfuscating language has this to say, courtesy Swami Chinmayananda :
Om. That (Supreme Brahman-the Paramatman) is infinite ( the Ocean in your example) and this (conditioned Brahman i.e the Jiva) is infinite.(the drop). The infinite conditioned Brahman proceeds from the infinite (Supreme Brahman). Then through knowledge, taking the infinite of the infinite (conditioned Brahman) it remains as the infinite (unconditioned Brahman) alone. Om Peace! peace !! peace !!!
Here the operative word is "through knowledge". It is only through knowledge can one realise who is the Paramatma or whether the Jivatma even though separate and is imprisoned in millions of living bodies is a whole on its own, but is also simultaneously a part of the Supreme Brahman the Paramatma and once liberted joins the whole, meaning the ocean and drop become an ocean again.
From a more mundane level it can be explained thus: It is customary to call the soul The Aatman in ordinary every day language. It can be compared to the Energy that gives a body Life, which in turn gets activated. Just to make things clear while explaining we say Jivatman and Paramatman which corresponds to Individualised Soul and Universal Soul. The limited human structure i.e. the human body is energised by the Individualised Soul and the Universal Soul is the ever existing Supreme Brahman, the Paramatman. This is nothing but word play to understand the Soul which is in its fullness before it is imprisoned in the body of all living things and beyond, and when it is without any limitations i.e. The Supreme Brahman. When you dra some quantity from the fullness, the quantity is in fullness and the source from where you drew also remains in fullness and what is left as balance also is remaining in fullness. this is the characterestic of Soul, Aatman God or by whatever name you call it. In my lexicon the word SOUL expands to:
S = Source,
O = of
U = Universal
L - Life.
http://www.geocities.com/aatmeekam/author/soul/htm
Thank you for making my thinking more clear and focussed than what it was before!!!
Regards.
Rajaputhran.
Anything unknown or feels like unknowable needs a nice little catchall term - God. At least we can be a bit proud that all these different strands of belief co-exist in hinduism so we can pick and choose different arguments to support pretty much any philosophical view instead of a dumb-ass prescriptive framework that gets knocked down every time someone in a lab coat picks up a test tube.
...so yes hindus say everything is God and also that everything belongs to God .
difficult subject ..best left alone .
.lean back and enjoy :)
For example during Ganesh Pooja a small 1 inch pyramid of turmeric mixed with rice is made. Slokas are said to give it the powers. During the pooja it is treated as God, then with proper procedures, it ceases to be a god.
I do not think that, using idols for worship is unique to Hindus.
Buddists and Jains have idols.
For example, in every church we find an idol of Jesus or Virgin Mary.
The Muslims though normally do not worship idols, but attach great symbolism to the Kaaba.
Isn't that some form of worship of an object connected to god ?
S,
You have perhaps heard the term "Pantheism" (Greek word)...it is similar to the belief system you describe: "God is Everything"
Pantheism blurs the line between God with His creation.
However there are other faiths which look at it otherwise.
*Example- Christianity...we see God as the "Master Creator"- but he is not the same as "ALL" creations (example- Evil)..simply put..The art is not the artist, the poem is not the poet, the music is not the musician, and the creation is not God.
Hope what I say is not confusing and makes sense:)
M
The intention is to learn. If, by mistake, I hurt anyone's religious feelings - I apologize in advance esp. from a genuinely Godly person like you.
I am having this conversation with Seva - how does Christianity differentiate soul from God?
God, THE Master Creator, created all souls. What is a soul?
Thanks much.
"Hi Mariposita - God, THE Master Creator, created all souls. What is a soul?"
This is a very profound question. A reading of books in Hindu Philosophy, would lead you to a multiple of answers, depending on whose philosophy is your favourite flavour of the month? This month, to me it is the Nature of Souls and what becomes of the soul after the death of the Human Body? This is a book written by Swami Sivananda Saraswathi of the Divine Life Society, Rishikesh.
According to him there are two Souls - the Jivatman and the Paramatman. The Jivatman is a reflection of the Paramatman or its image. Just as the Sun is reflected in different pots of water, so also the Paramatman is reflected in different minds of different persons.
Soul is spirit. It is (formless) immaterial. It is intelligence or consciousness. It is Chaitanya. Jivatman is reflected Chaitanya. It is this Jivatman that departs from the body after its death, with the senses, mind, Prana, impressions ( vasanas) desires and tendencies.
When the water in the lake is absorbed, the reflection of the Sun in the water merges in the Sun itself. Even so, when the mind is annihilated through meditation, the Jivatman merges itself with the Paramatman. This is the aim of human life.
Unfortunately, the Jivatman has become impure through cravings, desires, egoism, pride greed, and likes and dislikes. It is endowed with limited knowledge and limited power. The Paramatman is Omniscient and Omnipotent. It is an embodiment of knowledge and bliss.
The Jivatman is under bondage through (Avidya) ignorance and limiting adjuncts such as mind, body, and senses. It is mere appearance. It is illusory. When the Jivatman attains knowledge of the impersihable, it is freed from limiting adjuncts and bondage. Just as a bubble becomes one with the ocean, so also the Jivatman becomes one with the Paramatman when ignorance is destroyed.
A dead body cannot speak, cannot walk, cannot see. It remains like a log of wood after the soul has departed from the body. It is the soul (Jivatman) that enlivens, galvanises, moves and directs the body, mind and the senses.
The Paramatman is self-consciousness, self-awareness, self-delight, self-knowledge and self-existence. It knows itself and knows others. It is self -luminious, and illumines everything. Hence it is Chaitanya. Matter does not know itself. It does not know others. Hence it is Jada vasthu or insentient.
The supreme Soul is formless, attributeless, all-pervading indivisible, decayless, timeless, spaceless. There is neither time nor day nor night in the Sun itself although it creates day and night. So is the Parmatman, whom we call Soul is Infinite, Eternal, Immortal.
The Paramatman alone exists. This world of names and forms is illusory. It is superimposed upon the Paramatman, just as snake is superimposed on the rope. Bring a light; the snake in the rope vanishes at once. Attain illumination or knowledge of the Paramatman. This illusory world will vanish in toto.
Everybody feels 'I exist', 'I am', 'Aham Asmi'. No one can say, I do not exist. This then is the acid test. Of the existence of the Paramatman, and through the Paramatman the Jivatman.
Om Purna-madah purnam idam purnat purnam udachyate
Purnasya purnam ada ya purnam-éva-avasisyaté
Om shanti, shanti, shanti !!!
Regards.
Rajaputhran.
You did not offend me:) While my faith is important to me..when it comes to discussions related to matters of metaphysical, philosophical and faith/belief systems there are no right or wrong answers (or "my way or no way")...so to me, this is just a general discussion and I don't take it personally (unless someone goes out of their way to belittle, stab or make it personal!)
In fact...I like to read about the views/belief systems of others which are different from mine...and it is interesting to me (even within the Christian faith- there are so many different perspectives)...so the learning is always mutual:)
*Ok, returning to the topic...I do agree at the core that "God is the Divine Source- is the Creator of Souls"..
What is a Soul?
To me, just like we have a "physical" entity/body- the Soul/Spirit is the invisible force/sentity which exists in each one of us.As many others have described it..."the body is just a shell/vehicle which temporily lodges the everlasting spirit/soul within us..and even after the physical functions have ceased, the spirit(s) live on.
*Our soul/spirit is always connected to its Creator.
I will admit that there are many aspects about the soul- which are mysterious to me...and I do not really have to understand everything..faith in the end is a "certain comfort" of acceptance of the unknown awesome-majesty of the Divine source/force...without it my soul would feel restless-a deep void which nothing can fulfill.
M
http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/whatbudbeliev/115.htm
[Those who believe in the existence of a soul are not in a position to explain what and where it is. The Buddha's advice is not to waste our time over this unnecessary speculation and devote our time to strive for our salvation. When we have attained perfection then we will be able to realize whether there is a soul or not. A wandering ascetic named Vacchagotta asked the Buddha whether there was an Atman (self) or not. The story is as follows:
Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha and asks:
'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman?
The Buddha is silent.
'Then Venerable Gotama, is there no Atman?
Again the Buddha is silent.
Vacchagotta gets up and goes away.
After the ascetic has left, Ananda asks the Buddha why He did not answer Vacchagotta's question. The Buddha explains His position:
'Ananda, when asked by Vacchagotta, the Wanderer: 'Is there a Self?, if I had answered: 'There is a Self'. Then, Ananda, that would be siding with those recluses and brahmanas who hold the eternalist theory (sassata-vada).'
'And Ananda, when asked by the Wanderer: 'Is there no Self?, if I had answered: 'There is no Self', then that would be siding with those recluses and brahmanas who hold the annihilationist theory (uccedavada)'.
'Again, Ananda, when asked by Vacchagotta: 'Is there a Self? If I had answered: 'There is a Self', would that be in accordance with my knowledge that all dhammas are without Self?
'Surely not, Sir.'
'And again, Ananda, when asked by the Wanderer: 'Is there no Self?', if I had answered: 'There is no Self', then that would have created a greater confusion in the already confused Vacchagotta. For he would have thought: Formerly indeed I had an Atman (Self), but now I haven't got one.' (Samyutta Nikaya).
The Buddha regarded soul-speculation as useless and illusory. He once said, 'Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existing entities. Their heart still clings to Self. They are anxious about heaven and they seek the pleasure of Self in heaven. Thus they cannot see the bliss of righteousness and the immortality of truth.' Selfish ideas appear in man's mind due to his conception of Self and craving for existence.
Anatta: The Teaching of No-Soul
The Buddha countered all soul-theory and soul-speculation with His Anatta doctrine. Anatta is translated under various labels: No-soul, No-self, egolessness, and soullessness. ]
Vaidyanathan Pushpagiri posted Re:{Maria} Everything is God vs. Everything belongs to God on 5 mnths ago Amerasian :
Here is one point of view about a religion which is a non-religion.
extracted from http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM
The other major challenge to orthodox Vedism was founded by the son of a chief of a region called the Shakyas. This region lay among the foothills of the Himalayas in the farthest northern regions of the plains of India in Nepal. This founder, Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, has many legends and stories that have accreted around his life. While we can't be certain which of these stories and legends are true and which of the thousands of sayings attributed to him were actually said by him, we do know that the basic historical outlines of his life are accurate.
He was the chief's son of a tribal group, the Shakyas, so he was born a Kshatriya around 566 BC. At the age of twenty-nine, he left his family in order to lead an ascetic life. A few years later he reappears with a number of followers; he and his followers devote their lives to "The Middle Way," a lifestyle that is midway between a completely ascetic lifestyle and one that is world-devoted. At some point he gained "enlightenment" and began to preach this new philosophy in the region of Bihar and Uttar Kadesh. His teaching lasted for several decades and he perished at a very old age, somewhere in his eighties. Following his death, only a small group of followers continued in his footsteps. Calling themselves bhikkus , or "disciples," they wandered the countryside in yellow robes (in order to indicate their bhakti , or "devotion" to the master). For almost two hundred years, these followers of Buddha were a small, relatively inconsequential group among an infinite variety of Hindu sects. But when the great Mauryan emperor, Asoka, converted to Buddhism in the third century BC, the young, inconsequential religion spread like wildfire throughout India and beyond. Most significantly, the religion was carried across the Indian Ocean (a short distance, actually) to Sri Lanka. The Buddhists of Sri Lanka maintained the original form of Siddhartha's teachings, or at least, they maintained a form that was most similar to the original. While in the rest of India, and later the world, Buddhism fragmented into a million sects, the original form, called Theravada Buddhism, held its ground in Sri Lanka.
That's all we know about the historical life of Siddhartha, his mission, and the fate of his teachings. When we move into the Buddhist histories, the record becomes much more uncertain, particularly since the events of the Buddha's life vary from sect to sect. ... From a metaphysical standpoint, these Noble Truths make up and derive from a single fundamental Truth (in Sanskrit, Dharma , and in Pali, Dhamma ). The Buddhist Dharma is based on the idea that everything in the universe is causally linked. All things are composite things, that is, they are composed of several elements. Because all things are composite, they are all transitory, for the elements come together and then fall apart. It is this transience that causes human beings to sorrow and to suffer. We live in a body, which is a composite thing, but that body decays, sickens, and eventually dies, though we wish it to do otherwise. Since everything is transient, that means that there can be no eternal soul either in the self or in the universe. This, then, is the eternal truth of the world: everything is transitory, sorrowful, and soulless–the three-fold character of the world....As pessimistic as this sounds, the philosophy of Siddhartha Gautama is a kind of therapy. In fact, classifying it in Western terms is impossible. We think of Buddhism as a religion, which it unquestionably became, but Siddhartha was less concerned with theology or ritual or prayer as he was with providing a tool for individuals to use to escape suffering. The goal of this method, the Eightfold Noble Path, is the elimination of one's desires and one's attachment to one's self... In the years following his death, the teachings began to slowly develop into various sects. Buddhism became so fragmented that barely one hundred years after the death of Siddhartha, a council of Buddhists was called to straighten out the differences. The earliest forms of Buddhism, which are now only practiced by a small minority, are called Theravada, or "The Teachings of the Elders."
Regards.
Rajaputhran.
Anatta: The Teaching of No-Soul
>>> If Buddha truly believed in no-soul or no-atman, why didn't he declare it explicitly, when Vacchagotta asked him, instead of keeping quite.
“The Buddha taught that what we conceive as something eternal within us, is merely a combination of physical and mental aggregates or forces (pancakkhandha), made up of body or matter (rupakkhandha), sensation (vedanakkhandha), perception (sannakkhandha), mental formations (samkharakkhandha) and consciousness (vinnanakkhandha). These forces are working together in a flux of momentary change; they are never the same for two consecutive moments. They are the component forces of the psycho-physical life. When the Buddha analyzed the psycho-physical life, He found only these five aggregates or forces. He did not find any eternal soul. However, many people still have the misconception that the soul is the consciousness. The Buddha declared in unequivocal terms that consciousness depends on matter, sensation, perception and mental formations and that is cannot exist independently of them” (from the above link)
>>> the implication of the no-soul theory from above is that even though the material body continues to exist immediately after death, the consciousness in it disappears because the body no more has any sensation, perception and mental activity (formations) left in it.
A corollary to this might be as how or why do the sensation, perception and mental formations suddenly arise in the ‘unconscious’ material body around the time of birth, causing consciousness to take hold in the body?
Moreover, what does suddenly switch off the sensation, perception and mental formations at the time of death, turning a conscious body into an unconscious lump (material body) which even continues to exist after death for a few days?
- Seva
if you don't believe, then everything is false.
It is your choice. believe or don't believe.