[FlimFlam]

started by Rashmun 2 mnths ago
in bangalore, conversations with various people from different walks of life revealed that malayalam is a language which most tamils, telugus, and kannadigas find hard to speak or even to understand--its just very different is a common refrain. moreover malayali speakers speak very fast i was told by some non-malayali southerners. i met one person in bangalore knowing five or six languages (he was a kannadiga) and he said the reason even non-malayai southerners find malayalam difficult is because the tongue is twisted in a peculiar way while speaking this language; he then demonstrated what he said by saying 'what is your name' in malayali.

I would like u to share your views on malayali on this forum. Is it really somehow different from the other dravidian languages? also, is it more sanskritised than the other dravidian languages?

i would also like u to comment on whether hindi/hindustani is at least understood in the cities of Kerala.

Thanks.

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  scribblingpad posted Re:[FlimFlam] on 2 mnths ago
Malyalam has got a lot of sanskrit words and also pure tamil words. As for malyalam being most sanskritized, i got doubts. Our sanskrit teacher always said that only telugu contained a   lot of sanskrit words.
Hindi is not understood by many people in kerala, esp the deep ruralites.Just as in Tamil nadu, there are  urban schools  with hindi offered as second language. The students learn hindi like a subject. Now because of TV, they learn hindi faster. Same in Tamil nadu.. But the Govt schools have no Hindi in both states.
  scribblingpad posted Re:[rashmun] on 2 mnths ago
by govt school i mean the state govt schools


  flimflam2 posted Re:[Rashmun] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago

I would like u to share your views on malayali on this forum. -- rashmun.

the language is called malayalam; a person who speaks that language is called a malayalee or malayali.

although i am a native of kerala, i was raised in thamizh nadu; my best indian language is thamizh, and i only speak colloquial malayalam. we spoke in malayalam at home, and i was fluent in it. literary malayalam is a loftier version of it, and i don't know it. hence, i'm not the best person to answer your Qs, but will make an attempt.

"malayali speakers speak very fast..."

i don't think so. those who don't know malayalam may think so because of some unfamiliar and unique sounds, and the stringing together of words to form compound words.

"the tongue is twisted in a peculiar way..."

there's no twisting of the tongue at all. there are, of course, sounds that are more common in malayalam than in other languages. those sounds are produced in the usual way, for example, by: the placement of the tip, the flat, or the rear of the tongue, against various parts of the mouth or teeth, constricting or opening the throat, aspirating or not, and making the sound nasal or not.

here are some sounds that are common in malayalam, but not in thamizh: 'nga' (as in "manga" for mango, where the 'ng' is pronounced differently - much more softly - from that in thamizh; the tamilian will spell that word the same way in english, but the thamizh word is pronounced the way it would be read in english), 'gna,' (as in "vignanam," vigyan, i think, in hindi/sanskrit), 'La' (as in "veLLam" for water; the two 'l's in the word "malayaLam" are also different from each other), and the 'nna' (as in "nnamboodiri," and "nnalla" for good). these are only examples, not an exhaustive list. 

ask a friend to pronounce those words in malayalam for you. thamizh also has different letters to distinguish between sounds like the 'l' in "malar" for flower and the 'l' in "kuLir" for coldness, but in the spoken language, malayaLam appears to discriminate between these similar sounds more emphatically. 

of course, the greatest difference between malayalam and thamizh sounds lies in malayalam's free and even enthusiastic use, especially in literary malayaLam, of sanskrit sounds like "bha" and "dha" (as in "bhaaratham" or "bhaaradam" for india and the name "maadhavan"); thanizh does not use those sounds; it's "baaratham" and "maadavi" in thamizh.

i haven't talked about the sound 'zha' at all; it's unique to thamizh and malayalam, but doesn't distinguish the two languages from each other. that's the sound in "pazham" for fruit in both thamizh and malayalam, and the sound in (the word) "thamizh." the closest american (but NOT british) sound is that of the 'r' and the 'rr' when an american says "car," "error," and "farmer" (the american pronounces the last word as "fazhmzh")

"Is it really somehow different from the other dravidian languages?"

it is different, but it's closest to thamizh. as a speaker of both thamizh and malayalam, if i pay close attention and break words apart, i can understand some words in kannada, but not all, and fewer in telugu, but i can't understand an entire sentence. i can rationalize the meanings of more words in kannada and telugu if i think about them or discuss them "offline."

"is it more sanskritised than the other dravidian languages?"

definitely more so than thamizh, and quite likely, differently from telugu. i think malayalam uses more sanskrit sounds and many words with sanskrit roots, and telugu uses fewer sanskrit sounds, but many more words with sanskrit roots. i'm only guessing. i don't know enough about kannada to say even that.

"...whether hindi/hindustani is at least understood in the cities of Kerala..."

i have not lived in kerala, but have spent many summer vacations with my grandfather and uncles in kottayam, thiruvanandapuram (thiru + ananda + puram), ernakuLam, and munnar, and have many cousins who were raised and educated in karaLa. hindi/hindustani is not spoken in the cities of kerala, but more people understand bits of it than people do in thamizh nadu. that's because 90% of malayalees went to school, and 100% of those who went to school learnt hindi as a language. i can assure you that their pronunciation of hindi is awful, and they'd hesitate to speak it, but if your life were in danger, and they could help you by speaking to you in hindi, they'd speak it.

i suspect that the general attitude to hindi among kerala's students is that of pragmatic indifference, like that of a person who doesn't care for mathematics, but must demonstrate minimal proficiency in it to get a high school diploma, so that s/he go on with life.

btw, "malayalee" is probably a slightly anglicized version of "malayaLan" = mala + aaLu + an, where "mala" = hills or mountains, "aaLu" = person, people, or folks, and the suffix "an" = one who is, "wala" in hindi. thus, malayaLan = person from the hills (the western ghats).

flimflam

  Rashmun posted Re:[Rashmun] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
i suspect that the general attitude to hindi among kerala's students is that of pragmatic indifference, like that of a person who doesn't care for mathematics, but must demonstrate minimal proficiency in it to get a high school diploma, so that s/he go on with life.


-->
don't malayalis watch hindi movies and hindi songs?
  scribblingpad posted Re:[Rashmun] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
high time u started learning some south indian languages. U will understand India better that way


  Rashmun posted Re:[Rashmun] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
just one more point: u are probably unaware of the relationship between Dakhni and Hindi/Hindustani. I'd like to recommend the following highly interesting article to you. Your comments on this article are solicited:

Dakhni
  Rashmun posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
Hi Max,
i would be interested to read your feedback on the article whose link i have given in my previous post. It concerns a topic of your interest.
  MaxEntropy_Man posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
>>> this one made me chuckle: "It is the lingua franca of all the Muslims in South India". i know many tamilian muslims and not a single one speaks anything called dakhni. it's so popular in the deccan and amongst the muslims of southern india, that i never encountered it in 22 years of living in india, 18 of them in the TN where i grew up to adulthood. your mentioning it here is the very first time i ever heard about something called dakhni. lingua franca of the deccan indeed!
  Amerasian posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
"i know many tamilian muslims and not a single one speaks anything called dakhni. "

What's tamil muslims' native language? urdu?
  Ponniyin Selvan posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
What's tamil muslims' native language? urdu?

  Amerasian posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
Actually, I meant to say TN's muslims. The muslims in AP speak Urdu. I just wanted to know if the muslims in TN spoke urdu or not.
  MaxEntropy_Man posted Re:[amerasian] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
>>> in my original post, i referred to tamilian muslims. what language do you think tamilian muslims speak? what do you think the qualifier "tamilian" means in the term "tamilian muslims"?

>>> look up "mu.mu.ismail" (or m.m.ismail), and while you are at it also look up "umaruppulavar".

  muchocricket posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
> The muslims in AP speak Urdu

they do?
  Indophile posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
Probably they do in Hyderabad. In coastal areas, they speak a mixture - something like (when a servant maid told the woman a snake bit her daughter), "ek cheeTa kaaTnese hum ammo naayano bOlta, picchi pilla saap kaaTnese kitna bolta, ayyayyo!" 
  muchocricket posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
ROFL.. let's see if our buddy Rashmun can translate that to us.

yeah, they also speak decent urdu in Kurnool (town) and in some of the major towns in Telanagana
  Truthbetold3 posted Re:(mucho, Indo) malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
AP muslim's URDU is dependent on where they are within AP.  

As mucho already pointed,  Telangana Muslims generally speak decent Urdu. Hyd Muslims(educated ones) speak excellent urdu. (for normal person's urdu see the song from Kasauti - Amitabh and Hema Malini). For educated see any song from NIkaah.

Muslims in Guntur, Vijayawada, Kurnool, Kadapa, Guntakallu  speak a version that can easily survive in HYD if they move there. The concentration of people in these towns is large enough to maintain their language.  In north Andhra, Indo gave a good example. In rural Andhra, it is somewhat similar to what Indo said.

However, there is revival of Arabic learning and Urdu since the petro dollar flow in 1970s. 





  Seva posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
Probably only if they migrated from north. Btw,  dakhni (meaning Southern) probably is a local name (in south) for Urdu (a name for Hindi written in modified Persian / Farsi script).
  Seva posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago

Entomologically, the word Dakhni represents the distorted form of Dakshni,  which in Hindi / Sanskrit means southern (used in this case for the language spoken in south - Dakhni).

 

Thus, based on the roots of Dakhni being in  Hindi, Dakhni probably is just a form of Hindi spoken in South India.

  MaxEntropy_Man posted Re:[Max] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
>>> that would be "etymologically", not "entomologically";  yes i had figured out that it was a morphed form of dakshini.









  Rashmun posted Re:[FF] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
thanks for  sharing ur views on this, FF. i did know that the language is malayalam (i spelt it correctly in the first sentence of my post but misspelt it later on).

I think India is a delightful part of the world for anyone interested in linguistics.
  MaxEntropy_Man posted Re:[FF] malayalam and the other dravidian languages on 2 mnths ago
"I think India is a delightful part of the world for anyone interested in linguistics."

>>> then why do you want to destroy it by uniformizing it, chinese style?



  Vaidyanathan Pushpagiri posted Re:[FlimFlam] on 2 mnths ago

Rashmun:

                                                    

                                                                                 
A typical Malayali Characterestic.

It is a fallacy to say that to speak Malayalam  one needs to twist one's tongue in a special way.  It is like saying that to satisfy a woman a man must have a penis more than 9 inches in length!  Pure myth !!  Beyond a three inch penis any thing extra in length is just a waste!!!  Because a woman cannot feel beyond two and a half inches from the surface of her vagina.  Stupid humans in their ignorance think by enlarging the size / length of their penis, they can satisfy a woman!!!  Trivial nonsense.  

Malayalam and not Malayali as a language :   Malayalam is thought to have developed from Proto - tamil and became heavily sanskritized during the 12th century CE and even to this day, the language gathers a large proportion of its vocabulary from Sanskrit. 
 

Hindi / Hindusthani is understood in all cities, towns, villages of Kerala, to the same extent as Malayalam is understood in all the Hindi /Hindusthani speaking belts of India. If it is a commercial proposition, then leave it to the Malayali, he will use his ingenuity to clinch the deal, Hindi or no Hindi. The average Malayali is least bothered about the purity of his mother tongue.  To him language is a method of communication, and if he can make you understand what he wants to convey,  I think he has succeeded in his mission.  All this "ende keralam",  "Kerala : God's own country" are gimmicks to make the unwary fall for something that is not there. 

Because of its close affinity with Sanskrit (Deva Basha) Malayalam is a difficult  language for  the average Indian including the Tamilians, Telugus, Kannadigas and of course the North Indians.  A thickened tongue with months of white coating, is most unsuitable, for speaking this language.  Hence we inculcate the habit of cleaning the tongue, with an Earkkal Kutchchi (tongue cleaner) right from our very young age. 

Yes, we speak fast because we think quicker.  Generally, we do not have to laboriously marshal our thoughts to answer queries.  Perhaps you would not have forgotten  V.K.Krishna Menon. 

                                                                  

                                                  Nehru with V.K. Krishna Menon and G.B. Pant (centre). New Delhi, 1958. 

                                                        

                                         The Tea-Fed Tiger :
Nehru valued Menon highly as a friend, confidant 
                                              and traveling apostle. He admired his provocative intelligence.
    

Regards. 
Rajaputhran
.  

  rawemotions posted Re:[FlimFlam] - disc. on Krishan menon on 2 mnths ago
It is probably unrelated to the main topic.
There are many other luminaires to give example of Malayali thinkers.
Thomas Kailath ( A doyen in signal processing) , V.K.Kurien , Raja Ravi Varma ( I believe a good artist needs an intelligent mind) to name a few

Unfortunately, V.K's name is controversial.

I wanted to discuss  V.K.  in particular since you brought it up. You might also remember the current events at  that time.

i was curious. V.K. might have been an efficIent bureaucrat, but he is being blamed in many articles for the many foreign policy blunders committed by india, during his time and for the wrong advice he gave to Nehru. Infact there is a lot to learn from the failures of Krishna Menon.


So I am not sure that Krishna Menon's intelligence was all that beneficial to the country.

  Rashmun posted Re:[FlimFlam] on 2 mnths ago
thanks for sharing ur views VP



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