Oh Obama - what a dissapointment!!
started by Nisha007 4 mnths agoFlat
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This is not a direct answer to your question, but more of a compilation of my thoughts.
"Ultimately Actions Speak louder than words".
I am sure the American people will be closely watching his first four year term (this seems to be a foregone conclusion),
because they choose to ignore this important advice, when they vote for Obama.
He seems to have won based on three simple messages
a) I have a track record of better judgement on important issues
b) I cannot do everything by myself and might do mistakes and learn (So, I need all people to help) ,
c) I stand for bi-partisanship.
d) He believes in negotiations
(a) & (b) were clear messages, (c) was really empty with no track record of having done so.
(d) is the most outlandish of his messages. It has no direct backing and he seems to think that negotiating with countries
is similar to negotiating with common criminals.
Undoubtedly all his positions are due to current policy experts advising him.
They will want the clarity of thought in his actual presidential decisions. I am yet to see great clarity of thought in him, but more of empty nuanced rhetoric.
But one thing is clear, he seem to be the best of the democratic crop. McCain might be a good match for him on policy issues.
Otherwise the biggest worry is that he is likely to give some "carrots" to Pakistan show some improvement for America in Afghanistan. Knowing Pakistan, we all know that Pakistan does not want anything for itself, so any such carrots will definitely be directly inimical to India.
- Restore Paki and India parity in state department thinking, and avoid India being equated with China.
- Convince Pakis to send all the POK terrorists who were evacuated from POK (to prevent Earthquake relief from
discovering camps for about 10,000 terrorists in POK) and lounging around NWFP back to POK and do
harm to India rather than US.
- re-orient state department to signal policy shift on Kashmir and kowtow Paki line - respond to Robin Raphael's efforts
(she is a direct Pakistani Lobbyist now) and was instrumental in creating Hurriyat and minimize Pallone's and Blackwill's
influence on India Policy.
- Completely ignore direct support of Pakistan to terrorists in Assam & Kashmir in India and Bangladesh
The polcy experts, who are advising him are the same people ,who are likely to become secretaries (equivalent of ministers) in his administration and they need to be scrutinized during the presidential election , specifically for any Bias against India. See how Jews are making sure he commits to a position on matters affecting Israel. I hope the Indian Embassy does its job well here, by using media well for this purpose. But Indian Embassy known for proactiveness ? Bah!!. Wishful thinking
"Ultimately Actions Speak louder than words".
I am sure the American people will be closely watching his first four year term (this seems to be a foregone conclusion),
because they choose to ignore this important advice, when they vote for Obama.
He seems to have won based on three simple messages
a) I have a track record of better judgement on important issues
b) I cannot do everything by myself and might do mistakes and learn (So, I need all people to help) ,
c) I stand for bi-partisanship.
d) He believes in negotiations
(a) & (b) were clear messages, (c) was really empty with no track record of having done so.
(d) is the most outlandish of his messages. It has no direct backing and he seems to think that negotiating with countries
is similar to negotiating with common criminals.
Undoubtedly all his positions are due to current policy experts advising him.
They will want the clarity of thought in his actual presidential decisions. I am yet to see great clarity of thought in him, but more of empty nuanced rhetoric.
But one thing is clear, he seem to be the best of the democratic crop. McCain might be a good match for him on policy issues.
Otherwise the biggest worry is that he is likely to give some "carrots" to Pakistan show some improvement for America in Afghanistan. Knowing Pakistan, we all know that Pakistan does not want anything for itself, so any such carrots will definitely be directly inimical to India.
- Restore Paki and India parity in state department thinking, and avoid India being equated with China.
- Convince Pakis to send all the POK terrorists who were evacuated from POK (to prevent Earthquake relief from
discovering camps for about 10,000 terrorists in POK) and lounging around NWFP back to POK and do
harm to India rather than US.
- re-orient state department to signal policy shift on Kashmir and kowtow Paki line - respond to Robin Raphael's efforts
(she is a direct Pakistani Lobbyist now) and was instrumental in creating Hurriyat and minimize Pallone's and Blackwill's
influence on India Policy.
- Completely ignore direct support of Pakistan to terrorists in Assam & Kashmir in India and Bangladesh
The polcy experts, who are advising him are the same people ,who are likely to become secretaries (equivalent of ministers) in his administration and they need to be scrutinized during the presidential election , specifically for any Bias against India. See how Jews are making sure he commits to a position on matters affecting Israel. I hope the Indian Embassy does its job well here, by using media well for this purpose. But Indian Embassy known for proactiveness ? Bah!!. Wishful thinking
I am! Is it because he has all the solutions? Nope! But neither does McCain. At the end of the day, the solutions to the current economic crisis are going to have to involve 'trial and error' efforts and pragmatism. Here I hope Obama is not that naive to take a 'my way or the highway' approach. That would be disastrous considering his pronouncements about the gov't being a panacea, but I don't believe he will take that posture,. With regard to McCain- he is running a rather lackluster campaign.
My broader and primary reason for liking this outcome is that it establishes that America can walk the talk on racial issues. If he gets into office, it will hopefully do 2 things:(1) disgruntled minorities can see the "glass ceiling" can be broken; (2) the culture of "victimhood" starts dying out.
My broader and primary reason for liking this outcome is that it establishes that America can walk the talk on racial issues. If he gets into office, it will hopefully do 2 things:(1) disgruntled minorities can see the "glass ceiling" can be broken; (2) the culture of "victimhood" starts dying out.
The interpretation could also be that America is so bigoted when it comes to seeing women in subservient positions - more as wall flowers or pole climbers at strip clubs that if they had to choose between a black man and a white woman, they would go for the former. This tendency is apparent from the box office success of Sex and the city versus Indiana Jones....it should tell you about the way Americans have begun to think and what holds priority in their books.
Have you seen both of the movies?
*I have seen both...found Sex in the City too long and boring (I have to say...there were perhaps less than 5% of men in the audience..so looks like this a "exclusively women's movie" (supported by American women)...not sure if we can blame men for for the success of SITC. (but many of the women who went to see it out of curiosity..thought it was bad and disappointing).
*On the other hand...I liked Indiana Jones...was highly entertaining will all kinds of people (age, gender, race) in the audience like (an Obama rally:-) And the Indiana Jones movie has made far more money and will continue to make...let me guess at least 10 times more..by the end of summer.
M
The interpretation could also be that America is so bigoted when it comes to seeing women in subservient positions - more as wall flowers or pole climbers at strip clubs that if they had to choose between a black man and a white woman, they would go for the former. This tendency is apparent from the box office success of Sex and the city versus Indiana Jones....it should tell you about the way Americans have begun to think and what holds priority in their books.
he interpretation could also be that America is so bigoted when it comes to seeing women in subservient positions - more as wall flowers or pole climbers at strip clubs that if they had to choose between a black man and a white woman, they would go for the former.
>>> You could argue the opposite, if it had been Hillary instead of Obama. At the end of the day, whatever may be its problems, this is a society that is capable of change and evolution. More importantly, it sets a benchmark for other societies. As an example, the percenatage of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who rise to prominent positons/ wealth is pretty much unparalleled anywhere else. In terms of women, Fiorina has a prominent position in the Mc, who Cain campaign; there is Condoleeza Rice, a black woman who could well be a GOP VP candidate. Let's not forget Indra Nooyi. The country may have many problems, but it deserves kudos for the possibilities in engenders.
I havent doubted or argued about the possibilities the country engenders; surely many things have been done right or gone right and hence we are all there...:) however I have disliked Condy even more than Obama....
Anyways, it is too late to lament one way or another, let us see what the future brings.
On another note - today IBN-7 and NDTV came up with some "Maya Calendar" crap (Maya is some tribe of Mexico) where they predict that the world will end on Dec 21 2012 and apparently according to them this coincides with the predictions of Hindu and some other Egyptian calendars too. Would be interesting to see how they will refute this come Dec 21 2012. Where have we come to for TRPs!
>>> You could argue the opposite, if it had been Hillary instead of Obama. At the end of the day, whatever may be its problems, this is a society that is capable of change and evolution. More importantly, it sets a benchmark for other societies. As an example, the percenatage of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who rise to prominent positons/ wealth is pretty much unparalleled anywhere else. In terms of women, Fiorina has a prominent position in the Mc, who Cain campaign; there is Condoleeza Rice, a black woman who could well be a GOP VP candidate. Let's not forget Indra Nooyi. The country may have many problems, but it deserves kudos for the possibilities in engenders.
I havent doubted or argued about the possibilities the country engenders; surely many things have been done right or gone right and hence we are all there...:) however I have disliked Condy even more than Obama....
Anyways, it is too late to lament one way or another, let us see what the future brings.
On another note - today IBN-7 and NDTV came up with some "Maya Calendar" crap (Maya is some tribe of Mexico) where they predict that the world will end on Dec 21 2012 and apparently according to them this coincides with the predictions of Hindu and some other Egyptian calendars too. Would be interesting to see how they will refute this come Dec 21 2012. Where have we come to for TRPs!
Condi is bright, but I have read that she hasn't outgrown the US/ Russia paradigm in terms of global politics. Obama is personable, charismatic and bright, but the 'government can solve all probelms' approach gives me some concern. In other words, does he worry about who is going to pay the piper when the time comes?
Re: The end of the world-- I am always curious about what drives these doomsdayers. The dec 21 date makes you wonder if these guys are trying to come up with an excuse for not buying their wives x mas gifts.:)
Re: The end of the world-- I am always curious about what drives these doomsdayers. The dec 21 date makes you wonder if these guys are trying to come up with an excuse for not buying their wives x mas gifts.:)
Not me. I think Obama is a phoney and will say whatever it takes to get elected. His "audacity of hope" is all about himself.
His statements like "we are the ones we were waiting for" are ridiculous.
His statements like "we are the ones we were waiting for" are ridiculous.
His statements like "we are the ones we were waiting for" are ridiculous.
________________
"We are the ones we were waiting for" - is a well-known Native American saying which is repeated in the US all the time...it is also an interpretation of a Biblical verse...which is about "taking action" as in one helping their brothers and sisters on earth on behalf of God- and not just wait for the second coming of God.
It is also used very commonly used in most women's empowerment programs to motivate women to take charge and do things, instead of depending on others.
M
________________
"We are the ones we were waiting for" - is a well-known Native American saying which is repeated in the US all the time...it is also an interpretation of a Biblical verse...which is about "taking action" as in one helping their brothers and sisters on earth on behalf of God- and not just wait for the second coming of God.
It is also used very commonly used in most women's empowerment programs to motivate women to take charge and do things, instead of depending on others.
M
> it is also an interpretation of a Biblical verse...which is about "taking action" as in one helping their brothers and sisters on earth on behalf of God
This is where America is so under-developed country, they mix church & state like there's no tomorrow.
This is where America is so under-developed country, they mix church & state like there's no tomorrow.
using religious sounding language is not same as blurring distinction between church and state.
how could it be if president or presidential candidate keeps parroting the phrases I'm god fearing, wear my religion on my sleeve etc., (I'll shut-up.. I don't want to hijack this thread)
Leaving the Bible and Church aside....I don't see any problem with this particular statement...what is wrong is saying "help others and yourself without just sitting and waiting for God?"
Speaking for myself...faith is an important part of my life...everyone is motivated by something...different ideologies/philosophies...even if it is not a Biblical statement....I would take the Native American original (exact words) as common sense and personal empowerment.
M
If the voters can help themselves, why do they have to vote for Obama? Obama would be an excellent candidate for the role of motivational speaker. The presidency of the US is another matter altogether.
Well- we can go around in circles..and we are all entitled to our opinions...
I am and I am sure millions of others like me are ready and...would like to see a President who is does his job well...is ethical, with good leadership and tremendous strategic skills, bring all kinds of people together *(like Obama has had so far picking some of the best people to form a fabulous team who work with him)...just today he seems to be off to a great start and has already brought changes to the Democratic Party fundraising ways!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_money;_ylt=AhqFgB8FhQEUn80DgwZzNNWyFz4D
So, he is no slouch in being master politician, manager and task-master.
In addition if the President is a born orator like Lincoln, Reagan, Clinton and the gift to move and inspire like Kennedy..and other great ones like Gandhi, MLK and others...why not?
I'll take some inspiration!
M
If you look at how most past VPs are chosen, you can see why Obama may not pick Hillary. He needs someone who will deliver the Hispanic and middle-aged white votes without being a nuisanse in the white house. Hillary will bring Bill along with her and he is not the type that keeps quiet (to Obama's discomfort). By not choosing Hillary, Obama may have more freedom to run his own administration.
Now that Hillary is out of the picture, I would observe how Obama handles himself as the opponent to McCain during the coming weeks. In terms of gaining electoral college votes, so far, it looks like Obama needs to do a lot of work not only in some of the swing states but also in traditional Southern states.
I don't think he will pick Hillary. If he is not shot by December, he may do well in the election and become the president. Will he do well? It all depends on how the economy does. I think he will have tough time delivering on his major proposals. The average Amrican doesn't like sudden changes in domestic policies.
Now that Hillary is out of the picture, I would observe how Obama handles himself as the opponent to McCain during the coming weeks. In terms of gaining electoral college votes, so far, it looks like Obama needs to do a lot of work not only in some of the swing states but also in traditional Southern states.
I don't think he will pick Hillary. If he is not shot by December, he may do well in the election and become the president. Will he do well? It all depends on how the economy does. I think he will have tough time delivering on his major proposals. The average Amrican doesn't like sudden changes in domestic policies.
I'm happy to see Obama as the nominee.
But am also sad that he'll be picked on as a easy target. I don't think America is "liberal" enough to elect Obama yet.
But am also sad that he'll be picked on as a easy target. I don't think America is "liberal" enough to elect Obama yet.
2 things might get him elected:
1. McCain picks a NEner and that too a not-too strong abortionist - say Mick romney
2. Obama goes to church on sundays and praises the Lord a minimum of 2 times over the next 6 months.
And, oh... pick a woman - other than Hillary - as his VP.
BTW, I think the "hillary" question will be his first challenge. He should categorically should not ask her to be his VP and also boldly pick another woman as his VP - a kind of slap in the face attitude to show that he is strong enough to go against well-established machinery and not intimidated by the powerful. I think over the next 5 months Hillary's supporters will support the other woman VP candidate - who else they are going to suport ?
1. McCain picks a NEner and that too a not-too strong abortionist - say Mick romney
2. Obama goes to church on sundays and praises the Lord a minimum of 2 times over the next 6 months.
And, oh... pick a woman - other than Hillary - as his VP.
BTW, I think the "hillary" question will be his first challenge. He should categorically should not ask her to be his VP and also boldly pick another woman as his VP - a kind of slap in the face attitude to show that he is strong enough to go against well-established machinery and not intimidated by the powerful. I think over the next 5 months Hillary's supporters will support the other woman VP candidate - who else they are going to suport ?
BTW, I think the "hillary" question will be his first challenge. He should categorically should not ask her to be his VP
>>>> If his calculus shows that she is not necesary, I am sure no one will be happier than him, but at this juncture,looks like he needs her. I don't know who is on his short list, but that guy/gal should be able to deliver the blue collar white votes and states like w.v., kentucky, OH etc. It will still be an uphill fight for him, without her. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, with her.
>>>> If his calculus shows that she is not necesary, I am sure no one will be happier than him, but at this juncture,looks like he needs her. I don't know who is on his short list, but that guy/gal should be able to deliver the blue collar white votes and states like w.v., kentucky, OH etc. It will still be an uphill fight for him, without her. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, with her.
It is very interesting that James Carville of CNN, by calling Bill Richardson a Traitor effectively ruined his chances of being a VP. But he might still get some plum post in Obama's administration. But because of the Judas comment, he is likely to be opposed by many democrats.
I feel very strongly that McCain will opt for a woman to get some of the Clinton supporters (the senior women). Obama will surely not make up his mind, until McCain reveals his cards. If McCain declares a woman (Carly Fiorina of HP or Meg Whitman of Ebay) - both strong on economy, offcourse both have to be vetted by the Christian Right.
Obama will be forced to go for Clinton, since no other woman is more qualified than her, UNLESS she refuses. Whatever we might say , because of the party election votes, Clinton has first right of refusal for VP post. This three member committee are all nothing by delaying tactics until McCain reveals his cards.
I think Clinton wants Obama to offer her VP and for her to refuse it. She will angle for Chief of the Party in the senate and will be in a position to appoint all important committee heads.
I feel very strongly that McCain will opt for a woman to get some of the Clinton supporters (the senior women). Obama will surely not make up his mind, until McCain reveals his cards. If McCain declares a woman (Carly Fiorina of HP or Meg Whitman of Ebay) - both strong on economy, offcourse both have to be vetted by the Christian Right.
Obama will be forced to go for Clinton, since no other woman is more qualified than her, UNLESS she refuses. Whatever we might say , because of the party election votes, Clinton has first right of refusal for VP post. This three member committee are all nothing by delaying tactics until McCain reveals his cards.
I think Clinton wants Obama to offer her VP and for her to refuse it. She will angle for Chief of the Party in the senate and will be in a position to appoint all important committee heads.
Whatever we might say , because of the party election votes, Clinton has first right of refusal for VP post. This three member committee are all nothing by delaying tactics until McCain reveals his cards.
>>> I agree. The other *remote* possibility is that he gains momentum on McCain which gives him more bargaining power with Hillary.
I think Clinton wants Obama to offer her VP and for her to refuse it.
>>> This could very well be what they work out. If she takes the VP, she will push for a very active role, which Obama wouldn't want. There is also the matter of 2012. It will be difficult for her to run against him, if she takes the VP slot now, which will figure into her calculation.
G'nite
>>> I agree. The other *remote* possibility is that he gains momentum on McCain which gives him more bargaining power with Hillary.
I think Clinton wants Obama to offer her VP and for her to refuse it.
>>> This could very well be what they work out. If she takes the VP, she will push for a very active role, which Obama wouldn't want. There is also the matter of 2012. It will be difficult for her to run against him, if she takes the VP slot now, which will figure into her calculation.
G'nite
" And, oh... pick a woman - other than Hillary - as his VP."
====> A great idea!
Did you really think of that yourself?
====> A great idea!
Did you really think of that yourself?
:). Two words: Kathleen Sebelius. She was widely considered a good VP candidate before Obama was widely considered a good P candidate.
Since we are just discussing the possible selections...for Obama..
Here are my suggestions:
*VP- If it is not Hillary it can't be any other woman...that will anger her and most of her supporters.
And can't be Bill Richardson (two minority men is too much for the majority to take).
So it has to be white male with "Gravitas": Jim Webb, Joe Biden, Sam Nunn, Nelson etc...may be Govs. Rendell, Strickland etc....an unusal choice would be- Chuck Hagel (a republican) or Al Gore (ok, that is a fantasy)..
If Hillary is not VP- She can be Sec of State, Supreme Court Justice.
Attorney General: John Edwards
Sec of Defense: Chuck Hagel,
Sec of State: Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd
(Appoint as many other women as possible for other cabinet positions).
M
Since we are just discussing the possible selections...for Obama..
Here are my suggestions:
*VP- If it is not Hillary it can't be any other woman...that will anger her and most of her supporters.
And can't be Bill Richardson (two minority men is too much for the majority to take).
So it has to be white male with "Gravitas": Jim Webb, Joe Biden, Sam Nunn, Nelson etc...may be Govs. Rendell, Strickland etc....an unusal choice would be- Chuck Hagel (a republican) or Al Gore (ok, that is a fantasy)..
If Hillary is not VP- She can be Sec of State, Supreme Court Justice.
Attorney General: John Edwards
Sec of Defense: Chuck Hagel,
Sec of State: Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd
(Appoint as many other women as possible for other cabinet positions).
M
Oh...did not include Wes Clark, Evan Bayh...will add them too.
Women for appts: Govs. Sebelius, Neapolitano, Sen- McCaskill (my fav. woman politician), Feinstein
Women for appts: Govs. Sebelius, Neapolitano, Sen- McCaskill (my fav. woman politician), Feinstein
Neapolitano is from Arizona and cannot even deliver Arizoina - as McCain will carry it. Two of the four candidates form a small state like Arizona is contrary to politics of inclusion. McCaskill is a senator and so is out.
The last time, a senator became a president was...was...was... in 1960 - JFK, Jr by a whisker.
This time both being Senators, the VPs will be governors. The more I think, the more I am convinced Obama will pick Kathleen.....
Damn... even Kansas gets to play national politics - after Bob Dole and Nancy Kassabaum Baker.
I do not know much about Kathleen Sebelius and I am going guess and say that most people in the US do not know her (none of the I know women who are long time fanatic Democrats and work in grass roots campaigns know her)....we are just beginning to "get to know" Barack...so having two unknowns on the ticket would be odd (unless it is just for having a woman for symbolism).
And as I said...the women who support Hillary, support her for who she is (and Bill) so I don't think women will automatically switch to another woman.
So, if it is not Hillary...imo, it is better to have a more "well-known" long term white male politician.
M
The last time, a senator became a president was...was...was... in 1960 - JFK, Jr by a whisker.
This time both being Senators, the VPs will be governors. The more I think, the more I am convinced Obama will pick Kathleen.....
Damn... even Kansas gets to play national politics - after Bob Dole and Nancy Kassabaum Baker.
I do not know much about Kathleen Sebelius and I am going guess and say that most people in the US do not know her (none of the I know women who are long time fanatic Democrats and work in grass roots campaigns know her)....we are just beginning to "get to know" Barack...so having two unknowns on the ticket would be odd (unless it is just for having a woman for symbolism).
And as I said...the women who support Hillary, support her for who she is (and Bill) so I don't think women will automatically switch to another woman.
So, if it is not Hillary...imo, it is better to have a more "well-known" long term white male politician.
M
Though Vice Presidential choice makes a little bit of difference, I don't think that would be a game changer.
Obama's support so far is from a narrow base. I don't think that will be enough for November. Let us wait and see..
Obama's support so far is from a narrow base. I don't think that will be enough for November. Let us wait and see..
while this election might be about obama's message of newness and change, it'll be much more abt 'someone different than who's been in the white house for 8 yrs'. ppl have rightwing hangover. they'll pick obama if only to keep what they see as bush-lite (mccain) out of the white house. color stuff might come into picture if they're neck to neck, but I doubt this election will be so close. obama would be best served by picking a white male VP who's got foreign affairs and military cred. jim webb?
Webb would be a good choice, except for his sexist remarks about women in the military. Picking Webb would be a double whammy that will push Clinton's white-women demographic over to McCain. Wes Clark fits the bill better for military cred, although I like Bill Richardson more... First black prez, first Hispanic veep, both on the same ticket -- that should be a potent narrative of vote-bank politics!
I'm not sure why everyone's discounting Hillary as VP.
18 million people voted for her - should count for something in a democratic setup.
18 million people voted for her - should count for something in a democratic setup.
Sunday, June 8, 2008
It appears Barack Obama has finally dragged himself across the finish line for the Democratic presidential nomination, with Hillary Clinton wrapped tightly around his ankles. It is amazing that Senator Obama beat back the corrupt Clinton machine to claim his historic victory. Unfortunately, there are signs that Obama has a whiff of Clintonism about him. Now that Barack Obama is the presumptive nominee, let's review what we've learned so far about his ethical record.
* In echoes of Whitewater, Obama was involved in a questionable real estate deal with Antoin "Tony" Rezko, a political fundraiser who was just convicted Wednesday on