OBC quota
started by -sandilya. 5 mnths agoFlat
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Who is giving OBC quota? It is not given. It is taken.
India is a democratic country. Votes do matter. Numbers matter.
OBC are in strong enough in numbers that all major parties are either openly supporting these reservations or atleast not opposing them. In states like TN total reservations go upto 68% (may have gone up in last decade) and in AP Reservations go upto 50%. OBC already get more than 20% in AP.
Center extended it to IITs and IIMs and why not? Why should they be excluded? Why not private sector? Affirmative action is USA is applicable to all sectors of economy. How did that hurt US economy?
Ther point many are missing is that no body gave these reservations. It is the power of numbers of OBC that drove politicians to agree to this reservation. I am glad that SC took out creamy layer allowing the under privilaged in OBC get the reservations.
Personally my educational career is hurt by reservations but I am not bitter about it.
Philosophically reservations are a mere political tool. That tool will have some impact on society but not the transformative impact that its supporters propagate. We already saw that reservations have seen a very slow impact on SCs since Independence and hence the need for continued reservations and help for SC community. It will also have not as much negative effect that its opponents wants us to believe. The established castes will find ways to work around the reservations by some method or other. (read Rich Daddy Poor Daddy). Some individuals from upper castes will suffer but life as we know will not stop. Indian caste system will survive despite resevations or may be because of reservations.
To put simply, OBC reservation is a desperate attemp of certain forward class elements(mostly from Congress but supported by Sp, RJD, CPM, but not opposed by BJP or TDP or BJD or xxxDMK parties) to find a compromise with OBC voting group so that they can continue to run the country. This, at best tenuous, grip is not likely to last very long when SC/ST/OBCs fully realize their own electoral strengths. So those who challenge the govt on why they are giving reservations, should realize,
reservations are NOT given, they are taken by OBCs.
India is a democratic country. Votes do matter. Numbers matter.
OBC are in strong enough in numbers that all major parties are either openly supporting these reservations or atleast not opposing them. In states like TN total reservations go upto 68% (may have gone up in last decade) and in AP Reservations go upto 50%. OBC already get more than 20% in AP.
Center extended it to IITs and IIMs and why not? Why should they be excluded? Why not private sector? Affirmative action is USA is applicable to all sectors of economy. How did that hurt US economy?
Ther point many are missing is that no body gave these reservations. It is the power of numbers of OBC that drove politicians to agree to this reservation. I am glad that SC took out creamy layer allowing the under privilaged in OBC get the reservations.
Personally my educational career is hurt by reservations but I am not bitter about it.
Philosophically reservations are a mere political tool. That tool will have some impact on society but not the transformative impact that its supporters propagate. We already saw that reservations have seen a very slow impact on SCs since Independence and hence the need for continued reservations and help for SC community. It will also have not as much negative effect that its opponents wants us to believe. The established castes will find ways to work around the reservations by some method or other. (read Rich Daddy Poor Daddy). Some individuals from upper castes will suffer but life as we know will not stop. Indian caste system will survive despite resevations or may be because of reservations.
To put simply, OBC reservation is a desperate attemp of certain forward class elements(mostly from Congress but supported by Sp, RJD, CPM, but not opposed by BJP or TDP or BJD or xxxDMK parties) to find a compromise with OBC voting group so that they can continue to run the country. This, at best tenuous, grip is not likely to last very long when SC/ST/OBCs fully realize their own electoral strengths. So those who challenge the govt on why they are giving reservations, should realize,
reservations are NOT given, they are taken by OBCs.
Center extended it to IITs and IIMs and why not? Why should they be excluded? Why not private sector? Affirmative action is USA is applicable to all sectors of economy. How did that hurt US economy?
India is a democratic country. Votes do matter. Numbers matter.
I am glad that you mentioned these two, I was exactly thinking along those lines yesterday while driving.
1. On the first one, does USA has a reservations or quota system like India? Are there seats reserved for blacks of hispanics on premier insitutes or in the government sector? Why not?
2. Yes, votes do matter in a democratic country and that's my gripe against the universal franchise that an illiterate person can vote for any one and ruin the country! Anyway, I am digressing, that's not the point. So, the OBCs and SC/STs have sheer numbers to elect their representative and make laws that favor them. So, what does the forward castes do? Will they be allowed to create their own education institues which bar entry to any one not belongnig to 'forward' caste? Why not?
India is a democratic country. Votes do matter. Numbers matter.
I am glad that you mentioned these two, I was exactly thinking along those lines yesterday while driving.
1. On the first one, does USA has a reservations or quota system like India? Are there seats reserved for blacks of hispanics on premier insitutes or in the government sector? Why not?
2. Yes, votes do matter in a democratic country and that's my gripe against the universal franchise that an illiterate person can vote for any one and ruin the country! Anyway, I am digressing, that's not the point. So, the OBCs and SC/STs have sheer numbers to elect their representative and make laws that favor them. So, what does the forward castes do? Will they be allowed to create their own education institues which bar entry to any one not belongnig to 'forward' caste? Why not?
"does USA has a reservations"
Yes. It is called affirmative action. Yes. It is not the same as reservations but essentially the objective of providng seats on criteria that is not merit based. Frankly it is working ok as new generation of Americans are racially and culturally more mixed and understand the other racial cultures. It is still not universal as large swaths of USA are very white and many have not seen blacks or other races in their formative years.
One of the positives in Indian reservation system is the bringing together of people of different castes and social backgrounds together. That is as essential to reduce, remove caste prejudices. That mixing up makes upper castes understand that there are individuals and some of them as smart as the next person in those socalled backward classes.
"Anyway, I am digressing, that's not the point. So, the OBCs and SC/STs have sheer numbers to elect their representative and make laws that favor them."
No. You are not digressing. This is precisely my point. Universal franchise has larger benefits and expansion of freedom is the essential principle of progress in a society. In order to involve all sections of soceity, every one is granted voting rights so that they have a say in the matters. This is just the first step. Those backward sections have to over come their own educational, financial, cultural and social backwardness. No society is rich enough to create change overnite. So it is a long drawn process of these sections to progress with the fundamental weapon of vote. Without vote they have nothing.
Forward castes retain power by finding tools such as subsidies and reservations to tempt the larger voter groups to back them so that they (FCs) can run the country. This logoc is slowly weakening as backward classes , SC STs are ascerting their own desire to govern. In order to keep their own caste bases , they(BCs etc) will have to sweeten the pie all the time. DMK is a good example of blatant pandering to caste reservation requirements. But frankly no Indian politicla party can survive without catering to larger population demands of reservations, subsidies, wiping of loans.
What can FCs do?
Add Muslim percentage to this equation. Question becomes even more interesting. But let us overlook that for this discussion. The only way forward is for FCs to realize that India belongs to all and find ways to uplift all parts of the society. Social engineering (read reservations) is an ineffective way to help people. But that is a popular way in India and it is difficult to put the gene back in bottle. One has to live with it.
The scientific way to deal with backwardness is strong economic growth mixed with sensible distribution of resources(money) to weaker sections and some social engineering to speed up the developing process of weaker sections. Congress was slow in economic growth in early years and relayed too much on social engineering.
90s economic growth has opened more options as more money is available to help the middle class find new avenues to grow while govt can find money for social programs. The balance between economic growth and social justice is the key to Indian growth and social peace.
On social front, Fcs should fight aggressively to erase caste from social equations for their own good.
Yes. It is called affirmative action. Yes. It is not the same as reservations but essentially the objective of providng seats on criteria that is not merit based. Frankly it is working ok as new generation of Americans are racially and culturally more mixed and understand the other racial cultures. It is still not universal as large swaths of USA are very white and many have not seen blacks or other races in their formative years.
One of the positives in Indian reservation system is the bringing together of people of different castes and social backgrounds together. That is as essential to reduce, remove caste prejudices. That mixing up makes upper castes understand that there are individuals and some of them as smart as the next person in those socalled backward classes.
"Anyway, I am digressing, that's not the point. So, the OBCs and SC/STs have sheer numbers to elect their representative and make laws that favor them."
No. You are not digressing. This is precisely my point. Universal franchise has larger benefits and expansion of freedom is the essential principle of progress in a society. In order to involve all sections of soceity, every one is granted voting rights so that they have a say in the matters. This is just the first step. Those backward sections have to over come their own educational, financial, cultural and social backwardness. No society is rich enough to create change overnite. So it is a long drawn process of these sections to progress with the fundamental weapon of vote. Without vote they have nothing.
Forward castes retain power by finding tools such as subsidies and reservations to tempt the larger voter groups to back them so that they (FCs) can run the country. This logoc is slowly weakening as backward classes , SC STs are ascerting their own desire to govern. In order to keep their own caste bases , they(BCs etc) will have to sweeten the pie all the time. DMK is a good example of blatant pandering to caste reservation requirements. But frankly no Indian politicla party can survive without catering to larger population demands of reservations, subsidies, wiping of loans.
What can FCs do?
Add Muslim percentage to this equation. Question becomes even more interesting. But let us overlook that for this discussion. The only way forward is for FCs to realize that India belongs to all and find ways to uplift all parts of the society. Social engineering (read reservations) is an ineffective way to help people. But that is a popular way in India and it is difficult to put the gene back in bottle. One has to live with it.
The scientific way to deal with backwardness is strong economic growth mixed with sensible distribution of resources(money) to weaker sections and some social engineering to speed up the developing process of weaker sections. Congress was slow in economic growth in early years and relayed too much on social engineering.
90s economic growth has opened more options as more money is available to help the middle class find new avenues to grow while govt can find money for social programs. The balance between economic growth and social justice is the key to Indian growth and social peace.
On social front, Fcs should fight aggressively to erase caste from social equations for their own good.
I don't think Indian 50% or 68% quotas can be compared to US affirmative action. First, the affirmative action in US is more of a guideline, not a gift bestowed on by legislated statute or interpreting courts. Seats in MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Wharton etc., are not reserved by percentages for people based on race, and so is employment by govt. As for employment by private industry, let alone race - people like Bill Gates go before Congress to testify and plead for more H1-Bs to get people from abroad.
There is huge difference that people do not seem to notice between US and India. US is a predominantly white christian country with 10% blacks. So the blacks are minority and have to demand their rights and have to wait for social, political equations to favor the grant of any rights.
So the affirmative action is couched in different cloths to make it acceptable to the middle class. Immigrants like Indian will sneak in and snatch some of the benfits. But based social conseuqences and past court rulings , affirmative action is pretty well established social norm that helps blacks get certain percentage of seats. It helped the black community gain some foothold in the middle class. We can argue about the decorative side of the equation but the spirit of affirmative action is the same as reservations.
So the affirmative action is couched in different cloths to make it acceptable to the middle class. Immigrants like Indian will sneak in and snatch some of the benfits. But based social conseuqences and past court rulings , affirmative action is pretty well established social norm that helps blacks get certain percentage of seats. It helped the black community gain some foothold in the middle class. We can argue about the decorative side of the equation but the spirit of affirmative action is the same as reservations.
"Spirit" is okay, but "percentage" is what bothers. Just because the US population is 10% blacks there are no laws enacted to have a 10% reservation for blacks across the board (public, private educational institutions and jobs). Merit still plays a dominant role with surely some accommodation to race. The situation is worse than the reverse in India. Caste plays a dominant role with no "accommodation" to merit with caste-based reservations.
Indo,
as I have said in other posts, India and America are not comparable. The people who are getting reservations form the majority and also more improtantly form the biggest percentage of actual voters (unlike the middle class lazy bums who whine but do not act ). So they can influence the policies of the political parties. Parties tailor their politicies to lure the boters. It is a negotiation and contract with those parties. They are getting something in return for their vote.
The principle of merit is not cast in stone and even if its it does not mean much in Indian politics.
US is a much more advanced country with more sophistication. In 60s , affirmative action was more of a quota system . Over the years politics refined it to suit the middle class white voters. When compare US policies to Indian politics, you have to give lot latitude to accomodate the differences.
Affirmative action in India would have the same fate as PM appeal to private sector to hire more people from backward classes. Nothing happens. So ain few years, you can expect reservations in private sectors - how it effects economy,, I do not know. But my guess it would be it will not be disastrous as opponents predict it will be. If India can manage that for 10 years, it may turn to be positive.
as I have said in other posts, India and America are not comparable. The people who are getting reservations form the majority and also more improtantly form the biggest percentage of actual voters (unlike the middle class lazy bums who whine but do not act ). So they can influence the policies of the political parties. Parties tailor their politicies to lure the boters. It is a negotiation and contract with those parties. They are getting something in return for their vote.
The principle of merit is not cast in stone and even if its it does not mean much in Indian politics.
US is a much more advanced country with more sophistication. In 60s , affirmative action was more of a quota system . Over the years politics refined it to suit the middle class white voters. When compare US policies to Indian politics, you have to give lot latitude to accomodate the differences.
Affirmative action in India would have the same fate as PM appeal to private sector to hire more people from backward classes. Nothing happens. So ain few years, you can expect reservations in private sectors - how it effects economy,, I do not know. But my guess it would be it will not be disastrous as opponents predict it will be. If India can manage that for 10 years, it may turn to be positive.
Yes. It is called affirmative action. Yes. It is not the same as reservations but essentially the objective of providng seats on criteria that is not merit based.
Well, I still think there affirmative action is no where near our reservation system. In US, you can not discrimate based on caste, color or creed, which is the way it should be. There are no segregated seats for any community..
On social front, Fcs should fight aggressively to erase caste from social equations for their own good.
But how do you do that when the whole premise seem to be the caste. We are giving more focus to caste by diving them in SC/ST, OBC etc., how is the caste going to go away from the scheme of the things? On the contrary, we are making it more visible, the focal point of every thing - admissions into college, jobs...
Well, I still think there affirmative action is no where near our reservation system. In US, you can not discrimate based on caste, color or creed, which is the way it should be. There are no segregated seats for any community..
On social front, Fcs should fight aggressively to erase caste from social equations for their own good.
But how do you do that when the whole premise seem to be the caste. We are giving more focus to caste by diving them in SC/ST, OBC etc., how is the caste going to go away from the scheme of the things? On the contrary, we are making it more visible, the focal point of every thing - admissions into college, jobs...
MF,
I have stated above that reservations and Indian political system are the primary drivers of modern caste equations. Not the tyranical brahmins as some try to make it out to be.
In fact, at some point, it may be in the interest of elite in SCST and OBC to perpetuate caste divisions and not allow intercaste marriages or social caste mixup.
Forward caste have to understand caste is abygone relic of a belief that has no value today. What I see is a more of class wise collapse of caste in cities with more and more young people choosing their partners on their own. IT is widespread in US Indian families. I guess more than 50% of Indian American youth are moving away from caste based decisions. A similar phenomenon is happening in India in cities. Percentage is lower but fact is it is happening.
I have stated above that reservations and Indian political system are the primary drivers of modern caste equations. Not the tyranical brahmins as some try to make it out to be.
In fact, at some point, it may be in the interest of elite in SCST and OBC to perpetuate caste divisions and not allow intercaste marriages or social caste mixup.
Forward caste have to understand caste is abygone relic of a belief that has no value today. What I see is a more of class wise collapse of caste in cities with more and more young people choosing their partners on their own. IT is widespread in US Indian families. I guess more than 50% of Indian American youth are moving away from caste based decisions. A similar phenomenon is happening in India in cities. Percentage is lower but fact is it is happening.
Nothing works like bribery in India. The rich forward caste fellows will bribe their way around the caste quota.
I think the most screwed will be the poor belonging to forward caste category.
I think the most screwed will be the poor belonging to forward caste category.
"The rich forward caste fellows will bribe their way around the caste quota.
I think the most screwed will be the poor belonging to forward caste category."
A smarter way is to realize caste division is foolish and counter productive and overcome caste limitations on marriage. Let castes integrate expiditing the economic progress of all sections. Make caste go away in 50 years and it will help India realize its full potential.
Truthbetold3 posted Re: SC twist on Post Grad - OBC quota _ it is not a gift - it is taken on 5 mnths ago
I think the most screwed will be the poor belonging to forward caste category."
A smarter way is to realize caste division is foolish and counter productive and overcome caste limitations on marriage. Let castes integrate expiditing the economic progress of all sections. Make caste go away in 50 years and it will help India realize its full potential.
this again penalizes forward castes coz forward caste women are pretty and hot and OBC/SC/STs not so much. so there's no equitable exchange in this case and once again forward caste men are stuck with short end of the stick.
If the stick is short, why blame caste.
In terms of hot, give them few ponds cream, soaps, make up and give them a generation, they will probably knock your socks off. Plus they are strong.
In terms of hot, give them few ponds cream, soaps, make up and give them a generation, they will probably knock your socks off. Plus they are strong.
this forward caste female hotness (especially the mysore iyengars) is bred over a millenia. it's not easily replicated within a generation. you first need to fix the effects of malnutrition, and then 'fairify' over a few generations before others can compete in this arena.
Prop,
NO arguments there but there are only so few of them. You may have been a lucky one. Many of us found gold somewhere else and I can bet there is enough gold that most of the choosey ones will find some. The effects of historical sins do not need another history to correct itself. You can correct them in a generation or two.
On the other hand, it is only fair that short sticks get what they deserve for a generation till situation equalizes.
NO arguments there but there are only so few of them. You may have been a lucky one. Many of us found gold somewhere else and I can bet there is enough gold that most of the choosey ones will find some. The effects of historical sins do not need another history to correct itself. You can correct them in a generation or two.
On the other hand, it is only fair that short sticks get what they deserve for a generation till situation equalizes.
Truthbetold3 posted Re: SC twist on Post Grad - OBC quota _ it is not a gift - it is taken on 5 mnths agohttp://www.rediff.com/news/2008/apr/11quota3.htm
Check this news item. There is still some confusion whether current Law applies to Post Graduate studies.
Some Judges declared that Graduation ends the discrimination and after graduation reservation benefits are not available. This means IIM, IISc may not be available for reservation.
Would this also mean that other post graduate courses that were open for reservation such as IIT Post grad, Medical seats like AIMS in Delhi will not be open for them? Would they also deny all reservations including current SC/ST reservations at post graduate level? If this is true, it will be a real blow to those who enjoy the benefits of reservation at post graduate level.
Social engineering is a minefield and here is one that can cause lot of heartache.
Check this news item. There is still some confusion whether current Law applies to Post Graduate studies.
Some Judges declared that Graduation ends the discrimination and after graduation reservation benefits are not available. This means IIM, IISc may not be available for reservation.
Would this also mean that other post graduate courses that were open for reservation such as IIT Post grad, Medical seats like AIMS in Delhi will not be open for them? Would they also deny all reservations including current SC/ST reservations at post graduate level? If this is true, it will be a real blow to those who enjoy the benefits of reservation at post graduate level.
Social engineering is a minefield and here is one that can cause lot of heartache.
I think I'll have fun reading different comments over the next few days. 
I'm particularly amused by the "rage" of the "upper caste students" "Youth for Equality" movement in India.
I'm particularly amused by the "rage" of the "upper caste students" "Youth for Equality" movement in India.
I was hoping that someone will comment on the "creamy layer".
Supreme Court is right in skimming out the "creamy layer".
The opponents of reservation would do a good thing by focussing on the "creamy layer" issue and getting them out of availing reservations.
The opponents of reservation would do a good thing by focussing on the "creamy layer" issue and getting them out of availing reservations.
> The opponents of reservation would do a good thing by focussing on the "creamy layer" issue and getting them
> out of availing reservations.
Yeah, that will be a much more productive exercise than much hand-wringing about the unfairness of the system. As TBT pointed out, these reservations are not going to go away no matter how much the "upper castes" howl about them. It is far better for the "upper castes" to focus on making sure the system functions as it is supposed to, by keeping the "creamy layer" out.
> out of availing reservations.
Yeah, that will be a much more productive exercise than much hand-wringing about the unfairness of the system. As TBT pointed out, these reservations are not going to go away no matter how much the "upper castes" howl about them. It is far better for the "upper castes" to focus on making sure the system functions as it is supposed to, by keeping the "creamy layer" out.
> I'm particularly amused by the "rage" of the "upper caste students" "Youth for Equality" movement in India.
Another thing to note is the decidedly slanted reporting of the English-language media. They know the majority of their readers are NOT benificiaries of the quota, so they take a clearly anti-quota stance even in their reporting, not just editorials. Now, for a country where quota-beneficiars add up to a large majority of the population, what does it mean that the majority of English-language media customers are NOT from that group? It indicates that even today, education, particularly English language education is a lot more common among the "upper" castes than among the "lower" ones.
Another thing to note is the decidedly slanted reporting of the English-language media. They know the majority of their readers are NOT benificiaries of the quota, so they take a clearly anti-quota stance even in their reporting, not just editorials. Now, for a country where quota-beneficiars add up to a large majority of the population, what does it mean that the majority of English-language media customers are NOT from that group? It indicates that even today, education, particularly English language education is a lot more common among the "upper" castes than among the "lower" ones.
I doubt if the majority of readers are "upper caste"..But I think the majority of "writers" are. (i.e journalists / editors / senior staff ) in magazines / newspapers / TV shows. Looks like there was a recent survey that claimed as high as 90% of this group to be from "upper caste". (I haven't seen the survey though)
I have an idea.
People who oppose "caste based reservations" should pledge that they would not make any decision in life based on caste, the most important being whom to marry. Intra-caste weddings is the main institutionalised reason to perpetuate caste system.
If you have 100% exclusive reservation there, it is quite natural that you would have "caste based reservation" in other spheres.
People who oppose "caste based reservations" should pledge that they would not make any decision in life based on caste, the most important being whom to marry. Intra-caste weddings is the main institutionalised reason to perpetuate caste system.
If you have 100% exclusive reservation there, it is quite natural that you would have "caste based reservation" in other spheres.
People who oppose "caste based reservations" should pledge that they would not make any decision in life based on caste, the most important being whom to marry.
Not that I think your idea is a marvellous idea, it is another way to 'force' things on people but I have already done that, meaning marrying some one from a different caste than mine..no, not to the extent of marrying some one from a 'lower' caste but from a different caste, as you mentioned. Although I do not see a reason, why caste would have been any criteria for me to marry any one, including some one from 'lower' caste.
Not that I think your idea is a marvellous idea, it is another way to 'force' things on people but I have already done that, meaning marrying some one from a different caste than mine..no, not to the extent of marrying some one from a 'lower' caste but from a different caste, as you mentioned. Although I do not see a reason, why caste would have been any criteria for me to marry any one, including some one from 'lower' caste.
No one is forcing things. I'm just suggesting a method by which one makes caste irrelevant.
I know what will happen.
Children who are products of sc -sc marriage will get first preference.
Then the children of OBC-SC marriage get the next preference.
Then the children of OBC-OBC marriage get the next preference...
Then the children of OBC-BC marriage get the next preference.
Then the children of FC-SC....
And so on.
...
...
Children who are products of sc -sc marriage will get first preference.
Then the children of OBC-SC marriage get the next preference.
Then the children of OBC-OBC marriage get the next preference...
Then the children of OBC-BC marriage get the next preference.
Then the children of FC-SC....
And so on.
...
...
Do you think that's a bad idea?. It sounds good to me. Any inter-caste couple with one from the "lowest rank" should be given preference than say between two different upper caste couples.
What happens to the next generation?
For example
Mr. X is the product of SC-SC
Ms. Y is the product of FC-BC
Mr. X and Ms. Y get married. They have a kid Mr. Z
Should Mr. Z be given preference for college admission?
If that is the case, the government has to keep track of the caste-genealogical tree for each citizen.
Is it possible?
BTW my sister married a vanniar guy.
Their kids went to boarding school in Kodaikanal.
The kids always talk in English, call their parents mummy , daddy.
When it came to colege admissions, the father got them inside Anna University under BC category.
For example
Mr. X is the product of SC-SC
Ms. Y is the product of FC-BC
Mr. X and Ms. Y get married. They have a kid Mr. Z
Should Mr. Z be given preference for college admission?
If that is the case, the government has to keep track of the caste-genealogical tree for each citizen.
Is it possible?
BTW my sister married a vanniar guy.
Their kids went to boarding school in Kodaikanal.
The kids always talk in English, call their parents mummy , daddy.
When it came to colege admissions, the father got them inside Anna University under BC category.
One more thing.
The vanniar father did not want his son to marry an anglo indian girl.
What a hypocrisy.
The vanniar father did not want his son to marry an anglo indian girl.
What a hypocrisy.
Your brother in law looks like a 'hypcorite' to me. But what's your point of quoting that personal story?.
And from your example, I support the special privileges for X and Y and hopefully Z won't need those. If everything goes well, there won't be a need for special privileges after two generations. of inter mixing of castes.
kali yuga will arrive with the mixing of castes..
And from your example, I support the special privileges for X and Y and hopefully Z won't need those. If everything goes well, there won't be a need for special privileges after two generations. of inter mixing of castes.
kali yuga will arrive with the mixing of castes..
Kali Yuga is already here. You have to struggle to find traditional Brahmins amongst the Hiranyakashyaps, Ravans and Brahmin-DKheads.
> You have to struggle to find traditional Brahmins amongst the Hiranyakashyaps, Ravans and Brahmin-DKheads.
PSAT/VSAT man,
All you have to do is to look in the mirror to find the biggest Brahmin-DKhead pretending to be a traditional Brahmin.
You may have a point though. It may be a struggle find traditional Brahmins amongs the likes of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles :-)
PSAT/VSAT man,
All you have to do is to look in the mirror to find the biggest Brahmin-DKhead pretending to be a traditional Brahmin.
You may have a point though. It may be a struggle find traditional Brahmins amongs the likes of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles :-)
within a matter of minutes.