Kashmir - Amarnath Land Transfer
started by Uppili 3 mnths agoFlat
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Good going..
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http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/000200806302243.htm
Shrine Board controversy to be made a poll issue: BJP
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http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/000200806302243.htm
Shrine Board controversy to be made a poll issue: BJP
Bhopal (PTI): Accusing the Congress of succumbing to hardliners on allotment of land to Amarnath Shrine Board, the BJP on Monday said it would become a major poll issue.
"It (Shrine Board land) is an emotional issue for the common man and will be a major poll issue for BJP besides Ram Sethu and Afzal Guru (convicted in the Parliament attack case)," BJP's Prime Ministerial candidate L K Advani told reporters here.
He criticised Congress for withdrawing from its decision on the issue of allocation of land to the Amarnath Shrine Board.
Asked about Left parties' threat to withdraw support to the UPA government on the issue of nuclear deal, he said if the Left withdraws then BJP would move a no confidence motion against the Congress-led UPA government in Parliament.
acually, they should hold a nationwide protest rally without the hartals (to avoid any failure) and keep the issue boiling and bring it to the center.
Combne that with ram setu, etc..etc.... Should also drag SashtriBal Mosque into it.. demanding that the Kashmir Govt take away its land as well.
Combne that with ram setu, etc..etc.... Should also drag SashtriBal Mosque into it.. demanding that the Kashmir Govt take away its land as well.
I am sure they will use it to the hilt. For me, the only possible issue with the land transfer is the potential environmental impact. Like it happened with the Sethu Samudram project, the environmental angle got lost in the din of all the religious chest-thumping. By portraying this as a "demographic change" issue, the Kashmiri Muslim leaders have seriously overplayed their hand. Now we can count on yet another mountain-out-a-molehill religious issue hijacking the next elections. The only victors will be the far-right on both sides.
There is no env crap here... All they want is for that area to be handled by the temple board for 2-month temp structures for the pilgrims. It runs counter to the muslim agenda of converting Kashmir into a 100% muslim land and counter to the efforts of land absorption through Ethnic Genocide of Hindus. Now, the same temp structures will still be put up by the Govt... and it will look a lot worse. so the muslim objection is transfer of so-called MUSLIM land to a Hindu shrine. If they want to clean up the env. , then they can clean the Dal lake.
Most religious pilgrimages do disturb the fragile environment of places like Amarnath, because modern technology has multiplied the number of pilgrims many times over. The ultimate example of this are places like Mecca and Tirupati, where the transient pilgrims far outnumber the sustainable local population.
I don't think the environmental impact of the land transfer (how many additional pilgrims it will result in, and the impact of those pilgrims on water use and waste disposal in the area, for example) has gotten any real attention. The debate should be about THAT. My own gut feel is that the land transfer does not result in serious environmental harm (unlike for example the Sethu Samudram project which I suspect entails serious ecosystem damage.) In both cases, the debate got framed as a religious debate, precluding any calm and reasoned discussion.
As for the rest of your comments, they fall into the same old category of religious chest-thumping that I mentioned earlier.
I don't think the environmental impact of the land transfer (how many additional pilgrims it will result in, and the impact of those pilgrims on water use and waste disposal in the area, for example) has gotten any real attention. The debate should be about THAT. My own gut feel is that the land transfer does not result in serious environmental harm (unlike for example the Sethu Samudram project which I suspect entails serious ecosystem damage.) In both cases, the debate got framed as a religious debate, precluding any calm and reasoned discussion.
As for the rest of your comments, they fall into the same old category of religious chest-thumping that I mentioned earlier.
Env damage is an aftethought of maulana supporters trying to salvage their skin.
The issue is pure and simple.
UPA and PDP decided to give the land to increase temple traffic to create jobs for local muslims.
The Maulana (he is cheif of Kashmir something) stirred up the passions with one or a combination of the following: (a) He does not want land offered to Hindu temple. (b) He stirred up trouble so that politicos can bad mouth govt to get some benefit in coming elections (c) He stirred up trouble to restoke the embers of Kashir Independence movement which was in linbo because of International pressure on Pakistan.
The disturbing fact is a relatively small issue was able to gain so much mileage by stoking muslim sentiment of land offered to Hindus. So how can any one have any confidence in a community that cannot differentiate between small and big issues?
An even more disturbing fact is the lack of spine exhibited by PDP and Congress CM Azad. They could have stuck firm and forced the fundamentalists to retract. By backing down, they have now renergized them and helped them understand how powerful they are. Again the irrationality of elected politicians is even more dangerous.
UPA at the center should have seen this as an issue that will be exploited(in this case rightly by BJP) by BJP and VHP. This shows that UPA calculations is that it can take any chance with splintered Hindu vote but it cannot displease muslim vote even on a minor issue. It is a perfectly legitamate issue for BJP to exploit.
The issue is pure and simple.
UPA and PDP decided to give the land to increase temple traffic to create jobs for local muslims.
The Maulana (he is cheif of Kashmir something) stirred up the passions with one or a combination of the following: (a) He does not want land offered to Hindu temple. (b) He stirred up trouble so that politicos can bad mouth govt to get some benefit in coming elections (c) He stirred up trouble to restoke the embers of Kashir Independence movement which was in linbo because of International pressure on Pakistan.
The disturbing fact is a relatively small issue was able to gain so much mileage by stoking muslim sentiment of land offered to Hindus. So how can any one have any confidence in a community that cannot differentiate between small and big issues?
An even more disturbing fact is the lack of spine exhibited by PDP and Congress CM Azad. They could have stuck firm and forced the fundamentalists to retract. By backing down, they have now renergized them and helped them understand how powerful they are. Again the irrationality of elected politicians is even more dangerous.
UPA at the center should have seen this as an issue that will be exploited(in this case rightly by BJP) by BJP and VHP. This shows that UPA calculations is that it can take any chance with splintered Hindu vote but it cannot displease muslim vote even on a minor issue. It is a perfectly legitamate issue for BJP to exploit.
> Env damage is an aftethought of maulana supporters trying to salvage their skin.
It is probably an afterthought for the idiots who argued that the land transfer poses the threat of demographic change. But my point is, it should not be an afterthought. In the case of Sethu Samudram, the environmental issue was an afterthought for the Rama Sethu brigade. In both cases, decisions are made based on sentimental reasons and on "who shouts loudest / who does the most damage to public property" basis rather than on the underlying merits of the proposals.
It is probably an afterthought for the idiots who argued that the land transfer poses the threat of demographic change. But my point is, it should not be an afterthought. In the case of Sethu Samudram, the environmental issue was an afterthought for the Rama Sethu brigade. In both cases, decisions are made based on sentimental reasons and on "who shouts loudest / who does the most damage to public property" basis rather than on the underlying merits of the proposals.
Cravaka,
India has multitude of problems. Decisions are made and progress(and simultaneous destruction) is made without any consideration of those problems. Unlike Sethu issue, this is a minor amount of geographical area involved. Env factors are not even a factor in this issue (though it has to be listed much higher than merlot's demand to discard penis puja as a form of worship).
The question simply is the attitude of Kashmiri muslim's inability to separate simple from big issues and the support that maulana receives on issue of any size. That type of mob mentality leads to erosion of what little trust that is left.
Even more dangerous is the backtracking of govt. That sends all the wrong signals to militants and Hindus.
Frankly every Hindu outside kashmir should be wondering what type of life an ordinary Hidnu would have in future kashmir. If rest of India can demonstrate that they are observing and this sort of behavior will not be tolerated, both govt leadership and muslim leadership will mend their ways.
India has multitude of problems. Decisions are made and progress(and simultaneous destruction) is made without any consideration of those problems. Unlike Sethu issue, this is a minor amount of geographical area involved. Env factors are not even a factor in this issue (though it has to be listed much higher than merlot's demand to discard penis puja as a form of worship).
The question simply is the attitude of Kashmiri muslim's inability to separate simple from big issues and the support that maulana receives on issue of any size. That type of mob mentality leads to erosion of what little trust that is left.
Even more dangerous is the backtracking of govt. That sends all the wrong signals to militants and Hindus.
Frankly every Hindu outside kashmir should be wondering what type of life an ordinary Hidnu would have in future kashmir. If rest of India can demonstrate that they are observing and this sort of behavior will not be tolerated, both govt leadership and muslim leadership will mend their ways.
> That sends all the wrong signals to militants and Hindus.
I agree. This whole thing has spun completely out of the control of the Congress and plays right into the hands of the Kashmiri extremists and the BJP.
> Frankly every Hindu outside kashmir should be wondering what type of life an ordinary Hidnu would have in future kashmir.
This is not a matter of speculation. I have spoken to enough Hindus from Kashmir who have had to pick up everything and leave overnight so they wouldn't be killed. The goal of these extremists is to not have any "ordinary Hindus" living in present or future Kashmir in the first place.
> ... muslim leadership will mend their ways.
At this point, there is scant hope for that. With this "victory" of sorts for the extremists, their hands are only strengthened. If BJP wins the elections, that won't do anything to restrain them either.
I agree. This whole thing has spun completely out of the control of the Congress and plays right into the hands of the Kashmiri extremists and the BJP.
> Frankly every Hindu outside kashmir should be wondering what type of life an ordinary Hidnu would have in future kashmir.
This is not a matter of speculation. I have spoken to enough Hindus from Kashmir who have had to pick up everything and leave overnight so they wouldn't be killed. The goal of these extremists is to not have any "ordinary Hindus" living in present or future Kashmir in the first place.
> ... muslim leadership will mend their ways.
At this point, there is scant hope for that. With this "victory" of sorts for the extremists, their hands are only strengthened. If BJP wins the elections, that won't do anything to restrain them either.
" If BJP wins the elections, that won't do anything to restrain them either."
I agree. I never had much hope for BJP. Advani as a home minister is only a couple of notches higher than Shivraj patil, the current home minister and aboslutely the worst home minister ever.
BJP had enough time and opportunity to create national anti terror networks. They held back for fear of future misuse by another govt. It is hurting the country seriously now.
Watch the butchering of greyhounds by naxals on Andhra /Orissa border. It is an absolute shame and a complete failure of coordination between states (along with leadership ineptitude).
There are only handful successful non political institutions in India such as RBI, and Army.
I would have included IITs, IISc, IIMs, and AIIMS a few years ago. But not any more.
I agree. I never had much hope for BJP. Advani as a home minister is only a couple of notches higher than Shivraj patil, the current home minister and aboslutely the worst home minister ever.
BJP had enough time and opportunity to create national anti terror networks. They held back for fear of future misuse by another govt. It is hurting the country seriously now.
Watch the butchering of greyhounds by naxals on Andhra /Orissa border. It is an absolute shame and a complete failure of coordination between states (along with leadership ineptitude).
There are only handful successful non political institutions in India such as RBI, and Army.
I would have included IITs, IISc, IIMs, and AIIMS a few years ago. But not any more.
A much larger area of forest land is recently used up in Kashmir to construct roads that connects two districts by the same government.
So concern about environment does not hold in this case. This is purely a religious issue. Ofcourse to frame it in that way is not to the liking of "Indian secularists". (pseudo??)
So concern about environment does not hold in this case. This is purely a religious issue. Ofcourse to frame it in that way is not to the liking of "Indian secularists". (pseudo??)
I would say the pseudo-secularists are only too happy to frame it as a religious issue; they are the ones who get the Muslim votes in return for "fighting demographic change" in Kashmir. It is just an unfortunate reality for India that all issues get framed as religious issues and that makes it a zero-sum game pitting one religion against another.
I would say the pseudo-secularists are only too happy to frame it as a religious issue; they are the ones who get the Muslim votes in return for "fighting demographic change" in Kashmir. It is just an unfortunate reality for India that all issues get framed as religious issues and that makes it a zero-sum game pitting one religion against another.
No. If you are talking about Congress, Yes, if you are talking about PDP. Congress would like to downplay its reversal as it has to play in a wider arena outside Kashmir.
Anyhow, I think BJP can milk this issue if it plays the game right.
No. If you are talking about Congress, Yes, if you are talking about PDP. Congress would like to downplay its reversal as it has to play in a wider arena outside Kashmir.
Anyhow, I think BJP can milk this issue if it plays the game right.
Right,
I think BJP should just use the quotes from Manmohan Singh ("first priority" / "without sleep at the fate of some dude in Australia) / their court filings on the Ram Setu case, statements by their ally Karunanidhi about Ram / Amarnath land issue.
provide them publicity and then leave the rest to the voting public.
I think BJP should just use the quotes from Manmohan Singh ("first priority" / "without sleep at the fate of some dude in Australia) / their court filings on the Ram Setu case, statements by their ally Karunanidhi about Ram / Amarnath land issue.
provide them publicity and then leave the rest to the voting public.
I know a lot of guys have got really worried when I said that the only future for India is to declare herself a Hindu nation.
All these fellows are reacting to a mere speculation, a mere thought.
To top it, they do not have any concrete solution to counter this terrible insularity of Islamic population in Kashmir.
I dont like being a bigot. I donot even believe in any religion so much. TO top it, I donot believe that rituals can lead us anywhere.
But the way ppl react, only shows that SECULARISM hasn't helped INDIA at all.
Ominous indication of worse days ahead for the ppl of India.
I am losing faith in democracy, equal respect for all religions and ideas of
secularism. WE Indians are just not cut out for it.
period..
All these fellows are reacting to a mere speculation, a mere thought.
To top it, they do not have any concrete solution to counter this terrible insularity of Islamic population in Kashmir.
I dont like being a bigot. I donot even believe in any religion so much. TO top it, I donot believe that rituals can lead us anywhere.
But the way ppl react, only shows that SECULARISM hasn't helped INDIA at all.
Ominous indication of worse days ahead for the ppl of India.
I am losing faith in democracy, equal respect for all religions and ideas of
secularism. WE Indians are just not cut out for it.
period..
> I am losing faith in democracy, equal respect for all religions and ideas of
> secularism. WE Indians are just not cut out for it.
Yeah, like I am losing faith in Santa Claus. Or like I am losing a billion dollars in the stock market right now.
GBL, if you are too straight to understand what I said above: I am suggesting that your "faith" in democracy, equal respect and secularism are only as strong to begin with as my faith in Santa Claus. To put it another way, you can't lose what you don't have. So not to worry, wokay?
Anyone would get indignant when there is total loss of democratic largess in one part of the country. Kashmir today have ppl who think it should belong to Muslims alone, just because muslims are a majority here.
Such things would not happen anywhere else in India.
Muslims have been buying plots and building mosques in other parts of India, without any trouble. Nobody bothers to raise up in protest. But this happening to Hindus, in a state where they have been consciously driven out.; in a nation which has been letting them live in their country,hoping to give freedom to each other's religion and live in complete amity! Isn't it breach of trust ?Entire muslim people come out in great numbers to protest against a simple thing
. IF we stay silent, India will lose its prisitiness. A day will come when Indians will have to watch their temples turn to mosques.
There is a lot of glory in Hindu religion, a lot of goodness and a lot more freedom in it. But it cannot exercise anything unless it remains a majority religion. One day it will cease to be a majority religion someday and see what happens then.
More bloodshed, more backbaiting, restrictive rules on Hindus, control on hindu festivals, rationed use of hindu shrines and temples...control on pilgrms and restrictions imposed on them...." it is horrifying to think!
I have deep respect for all cultures and religions.But everyday something happens to demolsih my faith that India cant survive like this. Then my muslim friends would come and say"please, please all of us aren't like that...I am not like that liek, Islam is not like that"then i get pacified for some time.
Then again, then again then again they keep showing their ugly parochial faces.
India has not been able to teach secularism to its people because it is essentially liived through a feudal structure.
Go read Ruskin, Thoreau, Emerson for a real understanding of what is rational thinking and equality of man.
Love for the entire humanity must be cultivated in every citizen who aspires to rule. Instead of teaching Indian History to our students and making them more medieval, schools must think of drilling the kids side by side with the esence of American and British thinking, their heroism, their bloodless revolution and everything that made those leaders of real mettle in US and Britian.A thorough grounding in the essays and articles that inspire all that is noble in manhood,kind of thinking that our ppl are not even capable of thinking.
What is secularism? Is it to pander to minority? Is it to pander to the so called "backward castes' by giving them imporatance over those who hav Greater merit?
Where there is real democracy, where the ppl are inspired in the true sense, even muslims would have the inspired notion and love for the country and willingness to adapt themselves to the conditions of live and let live when they read the great books written by world leaders..
When equality of the people doesnot happen in toto, it only means that we are making a mockery of ourselves by calling ourselves "Secular".
WE ARE PSEUDO SECULAR". We need to import thoughts from the great nations in the west who are strong. Findout their building blocks and use it to build the moral structure of our nation.
Unfourtunately we are suffering from intellectual inadequacy among the leaders, who are at the helm of affairs.
> secularism. WE Indians are just not cut out for it.
Yeah, like I am losing faith in Santa Claus. Or like I am losing a billion dollars in the stock market right now.
GBL, if you are too straight to understand what I said above: I am suggesting that your "faith" in democracy, equal respect and secularism are only as strong to begin with as my faith in Santa Claus. To put it another way, you can't lose what you don't have. So not to worry, wokay?
Anyone would get indignant when there is total loss of democratic largess in one part of the country. Kashmir today have ppl who think it should belong to Muslims alone, just because muslims are a majority here.
Such things would not happen anywhere else in India.
Muslims have been buying plots and building mosques in other parts of India, without any trouble. Nobody bothers to raise up in protest. But this happening to Hindus, in a state where they have been consciously driven out.; in a nation which has been letting them live in their country,hoping to give freedom to each other's religion and live in complete amity! Isn't it breach of trust ?Entire muslim people come out in great numbers to protest against a simple thing
. IF we stay silent, India will lose its prisitiness. A day will come when Indians will have to watch their temples turn to mosques.
There is a lot of glory in Hindu religion, a lot of goodness and a lot more freedom in it. But it cannot exercise anything unless it remains a majority religion. One day it will cease to be a majority religion someday and see what happens then.
More bloodshed, more backbaiting, restrictive rules on Hindus, control on hindu festivals, rationed use of hindu shrines and temples...control on pilgrms and restrictions imposed on them...." it is horrifying to think!
I have deep respect for all cultures and religions.But everyday something happens to demolsih my faith that India cant survive like this. Then my muslim friends would come and say"please, please all of us aren't like that...I am not like that liek, Islam is not like that"then i get pacified for some time.
Then again, then again then again they keep showing their ugly parochial faces.
India has not been able to teach secularism to its people because it is essentially liived through a feudal structure.
Go read Ruskin, Thoreau, Emerson for a real understanding of what is rational thinking and equality of man.
Love for the entire humanity must be cultivated in every citizen who aspires to rule. Instead of teaching Indian History to our students and making them more medieval, schools must think of drilling the kids side by side with the esence of American and British thinking, their heroism, their bloodless revolution and everything that made those leaders of real mettle in US and Britian.A thorough grounding in the essays and articles that inspire all that is noble in manhood,kind of thinking that our ppl are not even capable of thinking.
What is secularism? Is it to pander to minority? Is it to pander to the so called "backward castes' by giving them imporatance over those who hav Greater merit?
Where there is real democracy, where the ppl are inspired in the true sense, even muslims would have the inspired notion and love for the country and willingness to adapt themselves to the conditions of live and let live when they read the great books written by world leaders..
When equality of the people doesnot happen in toto, it only means that we are making a mockery of ourselves by calling ourselves "Secular".
WE ARE PSEUDO SECULAR". We need to import thoughts from the great nations in the west who are strong. Findout their building blocks and use it to build the moral structure of our nation.
Unfourtunately we are suffering from intellectual inadequacy among the leaders, who are at the helm of affairs.
Pliss to double-space and resubmit. If possible, provide a two-line precis.
> Go read Ruskin, Thoreau, Emerson for a real understanding of what is rational thinking and equality of man.
I have read a little bit of all three of them, but not specifically for "equality of man" or "rational thinking". O GBL, perhaps you can provide specific examples of breakthrough ideas in these areas in their works?
> Go read Ruskin, Thoreau, Emerson for a real understanding of what is rational thinking and equality of man.
I have read a little bit of all three of them, but not specifically for "equality of man" or "rational thinking". O GBL, perhaps you can provide specific examples of breakthrough ideas in these areas in their works?
I have read a little bit of all three of them//
No wonder! A little bit is not enof. And I wasnt talking of u alone.
All that u have been doing is to swear and throw abuses, carvaka.
That doesn't help in any way.
To speak the truth, I am slowly trying to get out of my hindu skin , to look at the welfare of the entire nation and its ppl.
The entire nation and its people must be schooled in what made American Revolution, the books, the essays, the concept of freedom and equality,the writers who inspired the essential manhood in man.
Just reading it will help our men and women better people. This pseudo secularism will go among hindus and this fanatic pride will go among mullahs/
Will talk to u later, bye!No time now...
No wonder! A little bit is not enof. And I wasnt talking of u alone.
All that u have been doing is to swear and throw abuses, carvaka.
That doesn't help in any way.
To speak the truth, I am slowly trying to get out of my hindu skin , to look at the welfare of the entire nation and its ppl.
The entire nation and its people must be schooled in what made American Revolution, the books, the essays, the concept of freedom and equality,the writers who inspired the essential manhood in man.
Just reading it will help our men and women better people. This pseudo secularism will go among hindus and this fanatic pride will go among mullahs/
Will talk to u later, bye!No time now...
So I take it that you have no specific ideas on equality from the works of Ruskin, Thoreau and Emerson to back up your bluster.
Now, if you are genuinely interested in ideas that triggered revolution in England, America and France, here is a short reading list for you. All of these seminal works are available online, and make for good reading. Go through them, and post here if you want to discuss them.
On Liberty, John Stuart Mill
Common Sense, Thomas Paine
The Declaration of Indepdendence, Thomas Jefferson
Treatises of Government (particularly the second), John Locke
Of the Social Contract, Jean-Jacques Rousseau
The Rights of Man, Thomas Paine
Now, if you are genuinely interested in ideas that triggered revolution in England, America and France, here is a short reading list for you. All of these seminal works are available online, and make for good reading. Go through them, and post here if you want to discuss them.
On Liberty, John Stuart Mill
Common Sense, Thomas Paine
The Declaration of Indepdendence, Thomas Jefferson
Treatises of Government (particularly the second), John Locke
Of the Social Contract, Jean-Jacques Rousseau
The Rights of Man, Thomas Paine
Carvaka, i have read most of it.
Anyway thanks for submitting it again.
In ur case, u seem to be more bent on a fight.
Let me tell u that intellgent people don't fight. They may get indignant and emotional for a while. Ultimately u need to calm down and face facts. Squibbling shows lack of true interest in finding solutions.
I am not interested in a quarrel with u.I might feel gratified if a sulekha discussion helps in finding a way out. From what i observe, people dont discuss here to finally dissolve differences and converge into one acceptable solution for all.
Each attacking the other's ethnic origin with extreme racial prejudice..Is the Indian Educated Crowd that bad?
I shudder in shame.
Anyway thanks for submitting it again.
In ur case, u seem to be more bent on a fight.
Let me tell u that intellgent people don't fight. They may get indignant and emotional for a while. Ultimately u need to calm down and face facts. Squibbling shows lack of true interest in finding solutions.
I am not interested in a quarrel with u.I might feel gratified if a sulekha discussion helps in finding a way out. From what i observe, people dont discuss here to finally dissolve differences and converge into one acceptable solution for all.
Each attacking the other's ethnic origin with extreme racial prejudice..Is the Indian Educated Crowd that bad?
I shudder in shame.
I have read a little bit of all three of them//
No wonder! A little bit is not enof
>>> That's better than carvaka admitting that he once just google about their names.
No wonder! A little bit is not enof
>>> That's better than carvaka admitting that he once just google about their names.
If only either one of you had done some googling, you would have realized Ruskin, Thoreau and Emerson were all born a tad too late to have influenced the English, American or French Revolutions.
Carvaka, I wasn't talking only of revolutions.
I quote myself
" Go read Ruskin, Thoreau, Emerson for a real understanding of what is rational thinking and equality of man."
The building pillars of a land's moral moorings are the thinkers and intellectuals.They influence many others. It is not enof if they'd influenced just one Gandhi.Their prose writing should be presecribed textbooks so that more Gandhijis of various textures and flavours can be created in India.
We lack leaders and original thinkers.
I quote myself
" Go read Ruskin, Thoreau, Emerson for a real understanding of what is rational thinking and equality of man."
The building pillars of a land's moral moorings are the thinkers and intellectuals.They influence many others. It is not enof if they'd influenced just one Gandhi.Their prose writing should be presecribed textbooks so that more Gandhijis of various textures and flavours can be created in India.
We lack leaders and original thinkers.
Ahha... now you admit where you heard those names -- they are mentioned in high school textbooks as having greatly influenced Gandhi. But you see, they were not big contributors to ideas on "rational thinking" or "equality of man". If you had read the works of either of those thinkers, you would have realized that for yourself. You would also have realized that Ruskin and Thoreau would have disapproved of most of what you do in your daily life in modern society.
If THOREAU doent speak of INDIVIDUAL independence, freedom and fresh air as the basic right of man, who does.
CARVAKA, please tell me what he preaches through his works?
Let me test if ur knowledge ???
Haahaa.... u are not even one tenth aware of Thoreau as i learn from ur post. Shame that u pretend what u dont know!
Atleast admit ignorance and dont display it like this!
CARVAKA, please tell me what he preaches through his works?
Let me test if ur knowledge ???
Haahaa.... u are not even one tenth aware of Thoreau as i learn from ur post. Shame that u pretend what u dont know!
Atleast admit ignorance and dont display it like this!
> If THOREAU doent speak of INDIVIDUAL independence, freedom and fresh air as the basic right of man, who does.
The concept of liberty that Thoreau employs (an individual's freedom from the state, in the matter of civil disobedience) can be traced to many other thinkers before him, including those who actually influenced the English, French and American revolutions. Thoreau does not advance the notion of liberty in a fundamental way.
As for fresh air, that is a personal preference that Thoreau pushes as part of an overall idea of simple living. Walden, IMO, is an early reaction to modern technology and is not very applicable to today's world.
> Atleast admit ignorance and dont display it like this!
I freely admit ignorance when I am ignorant of something. Unlike you, I don't throw names around without even being aware of the timeline!
The concept of liberty that Thoreau employs (an individual's freedom from the state, in the matter of civil disobedience) can be traced to many other thinkers before him, including those who actually influenced the English, French and American revolutions. Thoreau does not advance the notion of liberty in a fundamental way.
As for fresh air, that is a personal preference that Thoreau pushes as part of an overall idea of simple living. Walden, IMO, is an early reaction to modern technology and is not very applicable to today's world.
> Atleast admit ignorance and dont display it like this!
I freely admit ignorance when I am ignorant of something. Unlike you, I don't throw names around without even being aware of the timeline!
sense!
I am not here to trace the History of American war of independence.
I am not throwing names. Referring to some ppl I read, Like Thoreau
Just saying that we need to bring to our ppl books written by World leaders, thinkers and intellectuals and inspire them on thoughts of true democrati values, rather than teach Indian History and silly dates.
Ur fixation for timeline comes out of this.
No wonder u miss the woods for the trees.
I am not here to trace the History of American war of independence.
I am not throwing names. Referring to some ppl I read, Like Thoreau
Just saying that we need to bring to our ppl books written by World leaders, thinkers and intellectuals and inspire them on thoughts of true democrati values, rather than teach Indian History and silly dates.
Ur fixation for timeline comes out of this.
No wonder u miss the woods for the trees.
> Just saying that we need to bring to our ppl books written by World leaders, thinkers
> and intellectuals and inspire them on thoughts of true democrati values, rather than
> teach Indian History and silly dates.
I agree. I think the core ideas from the works of Mill, Paine, Rousseau, Locke, Jefferson et al should be mandatory reading in high school. The original works themselves should be taught to all undergraduate students.
> Ur fixation for timeline comes out of this.
I brought up the timeline because of the jumbled thoughts you were conveying and the names you were throwing :).
> and intellectuals and inspire them on thoughts of true democrati values, rather than
> teach Indian History and silly dates.
I agree. I think the core ideas from the works of Mill, Paine, Rousseau, Locke, Jefferson et al should be mandatory reading in high school. The original works themselves should be taught to all undergraduate students.
> Ur fixation for timeline comes out of this.
I brought up the timeline because of the jumbled thoughts you were conveying and the names you were throwing :).
http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/jun/27guest2.htm
Excerpt:
It would be instructive to see what the Government of India does for Haj pilgrims visiting Mecca and Medina. The government is, in the words of External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, "committed to ensure that the best possible arrangements are put in place for the comfort and well-being of Indian pilgrims to facilitate their sacred pilgrimage." The "welfare and well-being of Haj pilgrims," he says, "is always a matter of utmost concern to the government."
In keeping with these public policy statements, the Government of India makes elaborate arrangements for the welfare of Haj pilgrims and strives to improve the facilities provided to them every year. That is how it should be. The Government of India, and the ministry of external affairs in particular, deserves credit for providing perhaps the best arrangements that any government makes for their Haj pilgrims.
And what exactly does the Government of India do? For starters, it provides an airfare subsidy to about 100,000 pilgrims selected by the Haj Committee of India who go for Haj annually. Pilgrims pay only Rs 12,000 for their air travel. This figure has remained unchanged for at least a decade or more.
According to official figures, this subsidy was Rs 280 crores in 2006, or about Rs 28,000 per pilgrim. Today, with rising fuel prices, this figure would have gone up to Rs 350-400 crores. Although there is a 2006 Allahabad high court judgment ruling against this subsidy, it continues to be given because the government got the Supreme Court to pass a stay order.
Add to this the losses suffered by Air India, and the inconvenience to passengers because its planes are diverted to carry Haj pilgrims. For the convenience of pilgrims, charter flights are operated directly from 16 airports in India to Saudi Arabia. Returning pilgrims can transport 10 litres of holy Zam Zam water with them free of cost. At Delhi airport there is a separate Haj terminal. To improve the comfort of pilgrims, Air India has been advised to use wide-body jets in future for their Haj flights.
Great attention and care to Haj matters is given at the highest levels of government. The United Progressive Alliance government has successfully lobbied with the Saudi government to increase the quota for pilgrims from India, as a result of which the annual quota has increased by 38,000 over the last four years. It will go up by a further 3,000 or so this year because of the exertions of External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee during his visit to Saudi Arabia in April this year.
There is a separate Haj cell in the ministry of external affairs. The Haj Committee of India has its own premises in Mumbai. Similarly the State Haj Committees have their own premises in various other Indian cities. These facilities have been built on land provided by the state governments.
Very high priority is given to Haj matters in the mandate given by the government to both the Indian ambassador in Riyadh and the Indian consul general in Jeddah. Every government in Delhi has ensured that only Muslims are appointed to these posts, a practical decision intended to facilitate their travel to Mecca and Medina, where non-Muslims are not allowed. There is also a separate consul for Haj matters in the Indian consulate general in Jeddah.
Accommodation in Mecca and Medina is decided keeping in mind the need to provide maximum convenience and comfort to the pilgrims. Typically, all accommodation has lifts, telephones, running water, electricity and telephone at the minimum. There is total computerisation of pilgrim location and movement. During Haj, a large contingent of seasonal local staff, supervisors, data entry operators, as well as drivers and messengers (whose job is to round up and bring home safely elderly pilgrims who may have got lost) is appointed by the consulate general of India, Jeddah, during the Haj period.
For Haj 2007, a contingent of 115 doctors (including 63 specialists with post-graduate degrees) and 141 nurses and other para-medical staff, 3 coordinators, 46 assistant Haj officers, 165 Haj assistants and 186 Khadimul Hujjaj were sent from India on short-term deputation to Saudi Arabia. Special attention is given to medical facilities for the pilgrims.
Some of the facilities provided by the government are: arrangements for polio, meningitis and influenza vaccinations for pilgrims before departure; a 75-bed hospital and 12 branch offices-cum-dispensaries in Mecca; a 15-bed hospital and 6 branch offices-cum-dispensaries in Medina; three medical teams at Jeddah airport to provide medical care round the clock to Haj pilgrims; 17 ambulances in Mecca and Medina; supply of medicines, medical supplies and critical medical equipment from India. All this adds up to the total money spent by the government to facilitate a hassle-free Haj pilgrimage each year for tens of thousands of Muslims from India.
Perhaps our self-righteous and petty Kashmiri politicians in India's only Muslim-majority state should reflect over these facts and tell us whether they think it is at least their moral if not political obligation to be more caring and sensitive to Hindu pilgrims visiting Amarnath. If we can do so much for Indians going on a pilgrimage abroad, should we not be able to do as much if not better for pilgrims at home?
For a start, should not the Jammu and Kashmir government at least try to match the facilities given to pilgrims to Vaishno Devi shrine, which is located in the same state? And is it too much to expect our politicians and other "secular" leaders to be a bit more courageous and vocal in trying to knock some sense into the heads of shortsighted and irresponsible Kashmiri politicians?
As those in power, both in Delhi and Srinagar, ponder over this matter, the litmus test has to be whether the decision finally taken adds to the comfort and convenience of the pilgrims.
Indian citizens and taxpayers deserve honest answers to the questions posed above.