Groom Taking on the Bride's Last Name
started by Persepolis 1 month agoFlat
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Vinod Gupte posted Re:Groom Taking on the Bride on 1 month agono. let it be shantiben kantiben patel. let him change his to bharatbhai shantiben kantiben shah-patel.
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Whatever you do whether he changes to yours or you to his or you have a "rodham Clinton" type last name make sure it is the same last name as your spouse. I thought it was cute to have my spouse's first name as my last name and now it is a pain in the butt. The first year we filed our taxes, the IRS had a tough time believing I was his wife and asked for more documentation. Every time we make air reservations, I have to make sure that the three in the family are under one last name and my last name is different from others. (try spelling them to those CSR's who mispell my two syllable first name). Added to this I have bank accounts in India with just my first and last name, whereas here they have added my maiden name, my maiden name with initials, maiden name with initials expanded as my middle name etc on all house titles that we have bought and sold. Moreover my spouse's true last name is a lot easier to pronounce and I kick myself evertime someone butchers my current lastname. I did get a chance to change it when I became a naturalized citizen but figured this would create more havoc in India when I visit to get into lockers and use my accounts etc at the Bank. Sorry for the long post but just my $0.02.
Anyway folks in india do most people know the ladies names other than as a Mrs Ranga or a Mrs Panga. It is also difficult to know the guys name since they are addressed by their last names and wives never address their husbands name. I had to get peopel to show me how they look to reach a Mr Ranga or a Mrs Ranga.
if bother Mr Ranga and SIL MRs Ranga came then the existing Mr Ranga and Mrs Ranga and add on more members from the Ranga Family, another Mr Ranga and Mrs Ranga then it got utterly complex. It was however easy to know all the kids by their names and distinguish them. But unfortunately most of them were pet names and i still never got to know the kids real names. they kept different official names
The girl's "gotra" changes to that of her husband after marriage. So her last name must change too - to that of her husband, because gotras are tied to last names. So technically, you cannot have a husband and wife with different last names among Hindus (because they cannot exist in different gotras).
indo question. how does gothra matter? does if ensure the two are from same caste?
You may view gotra as a group/tribe identifier. A girl and boy belonging to the same gotra are not supposed to marry (for religious purposes they are considerered brother-sister). When a marriage takes place the bride takes leave of her birth gotra enters the gotra of her husband. Their children are considered born into the husband's gotra.
When an adoption occurs the adoptee is admitted into the gotra of the adopter.
Now, if you ask what practical use is there of gotras, there is none, other than some satisfaction that you are following tradition. I've recently attended a wedding where the bride is a Telugu girl and the groom is a Sardarji with a beard, turban and all. So the priest when announcing the "pravara" for the groom improvised and went "Simha gotrodbhavasya..." ("simha" for Singh:-)
Indophile - Real life here.
After marriage, I gave an option to my wife to keep her maiden last name or to change to mine. She preferred to keep her last name. She actually has a longer and much tougher to pronounce (in US) last name than mine. Still..
So officially (in passports etc.), we have different last names and we have no problem with that. I don't believe that there should be compulsion for someone to change the last name if they don't want to.
After marriage, I gave an option to my wife to keep her maiden last name or to change to mine. She preferred to keep her last name. She actually has a longer and much tougher to pronounce (in US) last name than mine. Still..
So officially (in passports etc.), we have different last names and we have no problem with that. I don't believe that there should be compulsion for someone to change the last name if they don't want to.
In my house every one has a different last name... So it becomes a big disucssion with outsiders even to set things straight at pharmacies, doctors office, insurance, and banks - at the end of which everyone gets even more confused.
Hey...but that is someone else's problem....
Hey...but that is someone else's problem....
Care to explain further? I can understand 3 different last names (father, son and children), but it sounded from your post that there are more.
It's up to the individuals whether they wish to follow tradition or not. A couple may even let each of their kids decide whether he/she wishes to take father's or mother's last name, and accept if two children, a boy and a girl (brother and sister) choose different last names.
you have to name your children something within a few days of them being born. You cannot wait until they are old enough to decide. If they then later want to change their names then its they can but given that by that time most people are used to whatever they have been named they tend not to change it.
Yes, you are right. Then it's even easier for the mother to tag her original last name (maiden name) to the kid if she herself hadn't changed it after marriage. Anyway, in this country (at least in Maryland) they care a hoot about who the father of the child is. The birth certificate lady who comes around a few hours after the baby is born just wants the mother's name. Father's name is optional if you wish to supply.
This, incidentally, is an old Jewish tradition. The buggers were realistic, weren't they!
Indophile & sandilya:
I believe we have come a full circle. I believe cave humans & wandering early humans would have depended on women telling who the father of a child was. Marriage as an institution wasn't there so that made sense.
Then societies formed, marriage was formed. Then marriage became so strict that male domination began. After that now gradually, female rights are ensuring that women are getting the say again. In the world where you can buy a vial of sperm on ebay for less than $500, men are quickly becoming obsolete!
All you need is a small bunch of sturdy "donor 471" types who can help hundreds of women impregnate.
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/raisingkids/articlelhj.aspx?cp-documentid=8174747
PS: Bugger is a derogatory term for homosexuals, at least outside India.
I believe we have come a full circle. I believe cave humans & wandering early humans would have depended on women telling who the father of a child was. Marriage as an institution wasn't there so that made sense.
Then societies formed, marriage was formed. Then marriage became so strict that male domination began. After that now gradually, female rights are ensuring that women are getting the say again. In the world where you can buy a vial of sperm on ebay for less than $500, men are quickly becoming obsolete!
All you need is a small bunch of sturdy "donor 471" types who can help hundreds of women impregnate.
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/raisingkids/articlelhj.aspx?cp-documentid=8174747
PS: Bugger is a derogatory term for homosexuals, at least outside India.
Depends on how you articulate (aka spin). One can also say - that as primitive societies evolved it dawned on the bhodrolok ( a common term used in Orissa, Bengal and other northeastern parts to signify respected elders / thinkers / leaders) that everybody needs food, children need their mother, lawns need mowing, and that communication is essential. So they invented the institution of marriage where the guy slogs and brings home the bacon, the woman cooks, cleans, and looks after the kids, the teenage boys mow lawns, and teenage girls talk on the telephone. That brings order and prevents chaos in society.
Please powder the bricks before you throw them at me:-)
Please powder the bricks before you throw them at me:-)
Technically? Now that's a broad term. Technically as per whom/what? Hinduism? Why would a couple care about Hinduism if neither is a Hindu. Considering that I'm agnostic and hubby is an atheist and neither of us were ever born into Hinduism, we really couldn't care less about technicalities in Hinduism.
I disagree that last names are tied to gothras. Sure, at times the gothra itself might be the last name but that is in a small number of cases. Most last names are either the father's first name, the name of a caste / trade or the name of a place.
And in any event, gothra is a marker of a person's ancestry and to that extent historical in nature. Why should and how can that change for a girl just by the act of marrying?
And in any event, gothra is a marker of a person's ancestry and to that extent historical in nature. Why should and how can that change for a girl just by the act of marrying?
I disagree that last names are tied to gothras. Sure, at times the gothra itself might be the last name but that is in a small number of cases. Most last names are either the father's first name, the name of a caste / trade or the name of a place.
Yes, they are - at least in the community that I come from. You give me the last name and I can tell the gotra of that person in most cases. The son taking the father's given name, or the wife taking the husband's given name as the last name is a more recent practice, and there are several theories about why or how that practice came about.
The last name my ancestors (on the male side) used 7 generations ago and I use today are the same. For example, Tyagaraja's (of Carnatic music trinity) last name was "Kakarla." If he had any descendents (on the male side) today, their last names would still be Kakarla.
Sometimes the last names change because of some gift, honor or title bestowed on a person. For example, Jawaharlal Nehru's actual ancestoral last name was "Kaul." A moghul emperor (I forgot which one) gifted his ancestor ( several generation before him) some land near a Yamuna canal (nahar) and that evolved into Nehru. It stayed as Nehru until Jawaharlal and ended with him since he did not have any sons.
Yes, they are - at least in the community that I come from. You give me the last name and I can tell the gotra of that person in most cases. The son taking the father's given name, or the wife taking the husband's given name as the last name is a more recent practice, and there are several theories about why or how that practice came about.
The last name my ancestors (on the male side) used 7 generations ago and I use today are the same. For example, Tyagaraja's (of Carnatic music trinity) last name was "Kakarla." If he had any descendents (on the male side) today, their last names would still be Kakarla.
Sometimes the last names change because of some gift, honor or title bestowed on a person. For example, Jawaharlal Nehru's actual ancestoral last name was "Kaul." A moghul emperor (I forgot which one) gifted his ancestor ( several generation before him) some land near a Yamuna canal (nahar) and that evolved into Nehru. It stayed as Nehru until Jawaharlal and ended with him since he did not have any sons.
The real fun would be when the last/sur names are feminine.
Hello.. I am Jack Mary.
Good to meet you Mr.Mary.. I am Steve Margaret.
In Indian context:
Hi.. I am Gautam Veena.. and you are..
I am Ashok Seeta
50% of the humans are female, give or take a few percentages in Punjab & Kerala. How come we don't have feminine last names?
Hello.. I am Jack Mary.
Good to meet you Mr.Mary.. I am Steve Margaret.
In Indian context:
Hi.. I am Gautam Veena.. and you are..
I am Ashok Seeta
50% of the humans are female, give or take a few percentages in Punjab & Kerala. How come we don't have feminine last names?
It's not as if current last names are all masculine. Barring people who take on their father's (or husband's) name as a last name, most other people have the names of places / castes etc which are completely gender neutral.
Which reminds me - a classmate of mine has a hyphenated last name consisting of his father's and mother's first names. I thought that was really sweet and prob'ly made more sense than most other surnames.
I am not completely sure but Spanish seems to take both father's side of family and mother's side of family name. I think some of them use Hyphenated last names. I need to check.
Yeah, they do have a long tradition of children taking both parents' last names.
Yup. Here is a link on spanish surnames.
http://spanish.about.com/cs/culture/a/surnames.htm
http://spanish.about.com/cs/culture/a/surnames.htm
Yes, a lot of surnames are gender neutral like Sharma, Deshmukh, Yadav, Kelly, Bush.
However, the most visible part among last/sur names is that feminine surnames are almost non-existent. Rarely I see feminine surnames like Bharti.
However, the most visible part among last/sur names is that feminine surnames are almost non-existent. Rarely I see feminine surnames like Bharti.
Should I change it completely.
________
Although is symbolic...I would say...do it lady!
Once the decision is made to get married-it is far more smart/beneficial on every level!
To me, this is not an issue to feel weak/insecure about..(as in losing one's identity/independence)..almost all of the most independent/empowered women I know...took their husband's name! I wonder why Indian women feel that they will lose their "sense of who they are"..no woman has lost anything by trading one man's name (father/ family nam) for another! If the relationship ends, it will not be because of "just the name".
*Obviously- it has to be "the woman's choice (not forced) and how she percieves the change... I suppose it all depends on the perception and one person's progressive may be another person's foolishness-imo, if one does not even feel good about sharing/honored to share a man's name...I wonder if he is worthy of sharing anything/everything else with!
M
________
Although is symbolic...I would say...do it lady!
Once the decision is made to get married-it is far more smart/beneficial on every level!
To me, this is not an issue to feel weak/insecure about..(as in losing one's identity/independence)..almost all of the most independent/empowered women I know...took their husband's name! I wonder why Indian women feel that they will lose their "sense of who they are"..no woman has lost anything by trading one man's name (father/ family nam) for another! If the relationship ends, it will not be because of "just the name".
*Obviously- it has to be "the woman's choice (not forced) and how she percieves the change... I suppose it all depends on the perception and one person's progressive may be another person's foolishness-imo, if one does not even feel good about sharing/honored to share a man's name...I wonder if he is worthy of sharing anything/everything else with!
M
I'm seriosuly thinking of adding a middle name which I do not have and I have a few choices.
Should I go for the longing-to-be-famous type of people name like Manoj Night Shyamalan or Sandeep Timothy Batra,
or, a database nightmare very long middle indian name. I'm optiong for the latter and would need suggestions too.
How about FirstName Rajagopalachari LastName.
Should I go for the longing-to-be-famous type of people name like Manoj Night Shyamalan or Sandeep Timothy Batra,
or, a database nightmare very long middle indian name. I'm optiong for the latter and would need suggestions too.
How about FirstName Rajagopalachari LastName.